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All-Terrain Monkey

Asylum Testing 12 August 2005

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If if the target's base block LoS then you could never bless anyone. I think the emmanating of the fireball from the centre would get around the blocking.

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I agree. I think something needs to be rewritten before third printing is out and about!

 

You have to be able to target a model in order to have the ability to target large creatures blocked by smaller ones. Anything else just plain doesn't make sense... So the rules need to reflect that. Making an exception for large creatures or some such is a recipe for disaster... Simple is generally better.

 

In the case of fireball, I'm content to think that by targetting a model you ignore it for LoS purposes to other models around it. In the 5x2 ranked model scenario presented you sacrifice hitting all five models in the front for hitting three in the front and one in the back... It's still a little counterintuitive for me as my brain says everything under an AoE attack is hit, but that's ok...

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You guys crack me up. It's always fun to come in on Mondays. ::P:

 

Some questions raised over the weekend are answered here.

 

*There was some confusion regarding the term "Target Point" - a target point is either a point on the battlefield or a Model. (see page 65) The term itself is used to mean a single point from which a LoS corridor is drawn. Note that I had removed the "target point" reference being "only the ground" from GE's post when I had edited it so as to eliminate that confusion.

 

1)

Line of Sight is a 1/2 inch wide corridor drawn from any point of the attacking Model's base to any point of the target model's base (page 53). Since a spell originates from a "point" the LOS corridor is centered and anchored at one end on that "point" but it's still a corridor 1/2 inch wide.

 

2)

Models of the Same Base only Block Line of Sight if they fully cross the LOS Corridor otherwise it is only an Obstructed LoS. Only spells that are affected by Cover have a modification to CP in the event of an Obstructed LoS. All other spells treat Obstructed LoS as Clear (page 53 under Determining LoS).

 

Models that are taller than the Models in the front rank force the casting Model to suffer a cover modifier to CP but are still hit. However, they will Block LOS (not merely Obstruct) smaller models behind them as normal.

 

3) Fireballs and ranked defenders

Fireballs.jpg

TOP Image

Target point in front of the line. All Models affected equally.

 

Note that if the Target Point were closer, the Models at the flanks would gain light cover since bases would now obstruct the LOS corridor. There ARE advantages to being ranked. If the explosion happens directly in front of your buddy, you do get some protection. See follow up post for a diagram.

 

MIDDLE Image

A Model is the Target Point. Note that the Models at the far flanks are protected from the fireball due to their buddies.

 

BOTTOM Image

The MAJORITY of the time Fireball will be used it will be against loose/skirmish order targets. In this example the one on the far right has cover from the two models closer to the Target Point.

 

ps - If you can't get at least 50 points worth of wounds and damage off of a fireball spell it is because your opponent is playing well and doing his/her job in denying you targets, not because the spell isn't worth 50 points.

 

4)

Bless has no LOS requirement. LOS and therefore Cover/Obstructions etc. have zero bearing on this spell, all Models in the AoE gain the effect.

 

5) Scare and Hold require LOS. These spells are not affected by Cover (which is the norm, most spells are not affected by Cover) and therefore an Obstructed LOS is the same as a Clear LoS.

 

However, if the LOS corridor to the target is BLOCKED to a Model then even if it is in the Area of Effect, that Model cannot be affected by the spell. (If it can't see the oogy boogy nightmarish apparition that appears on the battlefield at the point of origin of the Scare spell then it can't be scared by it. If it can't see the caster, it can't be rooted in place by the bad mojo emanating from the caster of the Hold spell).

 

6)

Firestorm Coup-de-Grace's Models that are already stunned if they are in its AoE. It does not take a Model that is still functional, drop it, and then kill it with a single casting.

 

In this particular case I simply removed the text since Firestorm actually has zero bearing on the Fireball spell mechanics clarification.

 

Now, if there are further question, you might have to wait until after GenCon since I am unsure of our connection at the Hotel. :) I keep thinking there's a question I've forgotten to answer but we've got a truck to drive so I won't get to it right now I'm afraid.

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Here, one more.

 

Fireball2.jpg

 

This is the follow up post mentioned above. Note how the Target Point is directly in front of and in between two Models. These two models would be affected fully, however, they prevent an unobstructed LOS to the Models at the flanks.

 

 

Oh yeah, somebody also brought up a point where our Asylum notes got crossed. The GMP errata should now be correct on GE's first post.

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Question about the second diagram where three in the front and three in the back are being hit while the point of origin is in the middle front.

 

Corner to corner does not block LoS? I'm a little surprised that three in the rear are getting hit... I had expected three in the front and one in the back to be hit. Assuming that's right, two back corners (of the six hit), are they at -1 to be hit?

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The model that has the template centred on it doesn't count for LoS blockling and those on its left and right don't block LoS to the center of the models on the diagonal, so it is really just like the example above it.

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Hmm... Doesn't look the same to me!

 

123

456

 

When 5 is hit he doesn't block line of sight, I get that. But 2, 4 and 6 are adjacent in their corners. Which, in my mind, block LoS to 1 and 3. Certainly they're a LOT closer than the example just below this one for "Skirmish/Loose Order" formations being hit where the model to the far right is at -1 to be hit for obstruction...

 

It's all on how you see it. Do you see 1, 3 and 5 as touching? If so I understand why LoS is not obstructed... But, if you see 2, 4 and 6 as touching then LoS is obstructed... Both are equally valid. If we say that none of them are touching then there should at least be an obstruction modifier right?

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I'd say that they are adjacent to the model on which the fireball is centred and thus not obstructed. Sure the contact point is much less than 1/2" but the intent is that adjacent models are hit. MAybe Matt will make a pitstop to check the forums....

 

"I thought I explained it to those nit-picking wankers!!!!!! How did they not get it?!?!?! What the hell are they up to now?????" :lol:

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In regards to the top picture, the 2 models on the outsides of the front row would not be in the 2" AoE. The only way you could reach the center of their bases is if the fireball was centered on the middle guy.

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OK, I thought about it and figured out why it doesn't work. Warlord makes a special point of noting that corner contact does not denote base to base contact... So I guess from normal targetting rules you would not be able to hit the rear two models in question anymore than if one were 12" back from two other models in corner contact and you were making a Missile attack on him...

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VR: That doesn't make any sense with regards to LOS though, corner-corner not being valid base-to-base contact doesn't mean model 5 cannot see models 1 and 3, only that he cannot attack them in melee (whether model 2,4,and 6 were present or not 5 could sitll not attack 1 and 3).

 

Still I agree in the first example I am likewise confused as to how 1 and 3 are effected, since it looks to me like 2+6 block LOS to 3, and 4+2 block LOS to 1.

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Edited previous post while you were replying, sorry.

 

I am likewise confused as to how 1 and 3 are effected, since it looks to me like 2+6 block LOS to 3, and 4+2 block LOS to 1.

 

I don't think 5 would be able to attack 1 or 3 with melee (because of the corner-corner contact) or with Ranged weapons because LOS is blocked.

 

So I agree with you, but your corner + corner reasoning as to why the fireball shouldn't be is what I found confuding as the corner-corner referance you gave applies to melee contact and not LOS (maybe I just misunderstood you).

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