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Emmel Eitch

People of the Desert Wind

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I have to agree, I play huge units with my Reven, and being able to point and say 'Those 20+ models in Neek's unit are delayed' seems awefully harsh.

 

The delay plus Mobile means I migth be able to move onto the board just in time, and in range for the Khamsin to barrel down on me with Cavalry.

 

In small game where the Nefsokar's opponents only have a few initiative cards this begins to remind me of GW type U-go, I-go. You move all of your units, I move a couple of tiny ones while my big unit is held off of the board. Next turn my big unit comes onto the board and gets smashed to pieces by Cavalry.

 

Granted, my big unit is likely to outnumber the Khamsin Cavalry by alot.

 

Oh well, I suppose it's a case of all your eggs in one basket, lends credence to players who put out a tonne of small units on the board rather than big ones.

 

I'll live with it, mostly because the Khamsin models are largely fairly fragile, so they need something to make them effective.

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I'll live with it, mostly because the Khamsin models are largely fairly fragile, so they need something to make them effective.

 

Not only are the Khamsin's fragile for the points, they have no standard warrior model. Look at the list. The only cheap soldier is the Herdsman, and he's not exactly a wonder on the field. It's quite likely that Khamsin player will be outnumbered nearly 2:1, so delaying a troop or two still won't bring the numbers back to even.

 

PS

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Is the distance measured for Delayment from the leading edges of the Deployment zone? So if we are playing on a 4'x6' table with 12 inch deployment, the distance would only be 48" correct? That pretty much means that the vast majority of Delayments will be in the 1-2 turn range.

 

I do like the fact that you do not have to point out where your Delayed troops will be deployed, and when they do join the field, they can appear anywhere in your Deployment zone. Khamsin troops by that third turn will likely be within your Deployment zone, and you can drop your troops wherever you want. This does not give the Delayment a grossly overbalancing ability, which it may seem like on first read, although even still, it does come very close as is. If the Delayed troops were not allowed to be placed on the board UNTIL their initiative cards came up, it would have completely pushed the SA overboard. By that third turn they have the potential, if their cards come up first, to finish off your other models, since with their Ranger movement + one turn to double move, on that second turn they will be in your deployment zone and capable of engaging your models if you deploy close to the edge of your Deployment zone. Again, the balancing aspect of this is that they will have to be very careful where and how they do, else they will leave themselves open for slaughter when those Delayed troops suddenly appear. It makes it a very interesting gamble. I am looking at this from the point of the mounted models and base to base contact. Ranged attacks are a completely different matter.

 

If the gap between your Deployment Zone is 48" - Using a standard 4'x6' with 12" Deployment.

 

Models have 12 inch movement. With Ranger that distance is now 36"

First Turn, double move, and the distance is now 12".

Second Turn, with a Charge action, they have the potential to charge and engage models close to the leading edge of your Deployment (if you only have a 6" deployment on that 6 foot table, they'd actually get a 3rd turn to get there and would easily be within the Deployment Zone.

Third turn, all hell breaks loose.

 

If models are already in your deployment zone at the end of turn 2 (or at whatever turn the Delayed troops are returned to the field), which is very possible, and you now have the ability to place your own models anywhere in your deployment zone. Can your suddenly deployed troops be placed in base to base with Khamsin models? :devil:

 

I'm glad models with Tactician are exempt from this. I would think that models with Spy might be as well, that would really only add a few more models to the possibility (since most models that have Spy, also have Tactician), and would make equal sense, and give a little more to the SA than burying a card at deployment time. Including the part about Models in Delayed troops with Tactician may not employ bonuses from Spy or Tactician does not make much sense. That sentence should only include Spy, since models with Tactician grant their entire troop immunity to Delayment.

 

Terrain is going to become VERY important in games. Both in terms of getting cover and hiding from the archers in the early rounds AND because Cavalry get serious penalties to movement because of terrain.

 

I also think we need to think of a better name for the Special Ability. :poke:

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The standard table means 1 turn delayment. From your example above that means you would not have engaged your enemy on turn 1. I agree with this unless you are playing a unintelligent player.

 

This means your Cav gets in range to strike and then the reinforcements come. You have accomplished next to nothing and are awaiting the infantry meat grinder which now shopuld have more cards than the cav army.

 

And as Qwyk said "you now have the ability to place your own models anywhere in your deployment zone. Can your suddenly deployed troops be placed in base to base with Khamsin models? :devil: "

 

Good question Qwyk. It also points out how advantageous this rule is for the non-Nef player.

 

A very poor ability which more times than not will be a bane to the Nefsokar.

 

Test it out... Deploy the enemy close to the table edge and wait for the Nef cav to come... Then put your reserves where ever needed to send those little sand bugger back to Sokar's cold embrace!

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The standard table means 1 turn delayment. From your example above that means you would not have engaged your enemy on turn 1. I agree with this unless you are playing a unintelligent player.

 

This means your Cav gets in range to strike and then the reinforcements come. You have accomplished next to nothing and are awaiting the infantry meat grinder which now shopuld have more cards than the cav army.

 

And as Qwyk said "you now have the ability to place your own models anywhere in your deployment zone. Can your suddenly deployed troops be placed in base to base with Khamsin models? :devil: "

 

Good question Qwyk. It also points out how advantageous this rule is for the non-Nef player.

 

A very poor ability which more times than not will be a bane to the Nefsokar.

 

Test it out... Deploy the enemy close to the table edge and wait for the Nef cav to come... Then put your reserves where ever needed to send those little sand bugger back to Sokar's cold embrace!

 

With the standard table and my example, I was playing the long way. The situation would be the same case if playing the short way. Usually, if we are playing across the 4 foot length, Deployment zones are 6 inches. In fact, playing the short way is more of an advantage to the Nefsokar player. Then the distance to cover is only 36 inches, which is still within the 2 turn band for Delayment. That would almost guarantee close combat by the Nefsokar models during the second turn.

 

A lot about how effective this special ability will be depends on how effective that initial charge during turn 2 is. Potentially, it could wipe out the smaller, remaining troops, leaving the entire army left to grind up the one Delayed troop.

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The standard table means 1 turn delayment. From your example above that means you would not have engaged your enemy on turn 1. I agree with this unless you are playing a unintelligent player.

 

This means your Cav gets in range to strike and then the reinforcements come. You have accomplished next to nothing and are awaiting the infantry meat grinder which now shopuld have more cards than the cav army.

 

And as Qwyk said "you now have the ability to place your own models anywhere in your deployment zone. Can your suddenly deployed troops be placed in base to base with Khamsin models? :devil: "

 

Good question Qwyk. It also points out how advantageous this rule is for the non-Nef player.

 

A very poor ability which more times than not will be a bane to the Nefsokar.

 

Test it out... Deploy the enemy close to the table edge and wait for the Nef cav to come... Then put your reserves where ever needed to send those little sand bugger back to Sokar's cold embrace!

 

With the standard table and my example, I was playing the long way. The situation would be the same case if playing the short way. Usually, if we are playing across the 4 foot length, Deployment zones are 6 inches. In fact, playing the short way is more of an advantage to the Nefsokar player. Then the distance to cover is only 36 inches, which is still within the 2 turn band for Delayment. That would almost guarantee close combat by the Nefsokar models during the second turn.

 

A lot about how effective this special ability will be depends on how effective that initial charge during turn 2 is. Potentially, it could wipe out the smaller, remaining troops, leaving the entire army left to grind up the one Delayed troop.

 

 

Very unlikely. Unless the Nefsokar force is mostly Cavalry, their non-Cav forces are going to get a maximum of 6" DZ + 12" move turn 1 + 8" charge = 26" across a 48" table. Dervishes will get 28". Unless the enemy is dumb enough to come out and meet you, you're not going to get them that way.

 

Which means that, unless there is some limit placed on the placement of the newly-deployed troop post-delayment, the cavalry advance force is Fuqued. You might do well against some armies with mounted archers and forward-deplyed Rangers, but aside from that...

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Standard rules state a 4'x4' or 4'x6' table with a 1'x2' deployment zone. This is how the rules which is obviosly different from you play. The new Nef rules I'm sure are to be used with the core rules. That means before the cav goes on turn 2 the enemies reinforcements have entered as well as their cards. This means that the non-Nef will probably go before Nef and grind the Cav.

 

So the effictiveness of the turn 2 charge will be less due to the reinforcements helping to resist the cav charge on turn 2.

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Has anyone playtested this yet, or is this just hypothetical discussion of the what ifs?

 

I am very curious ot hear form someone who has used this ability - preferably more than once - to hear if we need to make any changes. hypotheticals are nice, but practical experience will be much more useful for maintinaing practical game balance.

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I've only used it twice so far, and only once with any real quantity of cavalry in the army.

 

But I have to agree with ElementsWarden. You will get the initial charge, you may kill something, but then you will be immediately mobbed by the newly-arrived delayed troop. Cavalry are especially vulnerable to this because their larger bases means they are easier to mob and drag down (this is why I repeatedly argued against giving them a low-average DV).

 

On a four-foot table with 12" deployment zones, you'll be more easily able to get regular infantry into the mix, especially if the opponent's deployed forward, but we haven't tried it with that particular configuration... and in that arrangement, you'd only get one turn's delay, after which they'll pop up right on top of you, with the same result.

 

I have to strongly support both a) add an extra turn to the delay and b) mandate the delayed troop entering from a specific point on the edge of the table.

 

(ETA: An alternative to a). The delayed troop enters, and is able to activate, at the END of the turn they leave delay status, just before the Spectral Minions activation phase. Thus on a 2-turn delay they would enter from the specified point on the board-edge as the last troop to activate on turn 3.)

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I haven't had a chance to playtest it yet, since I just read about it last night and am a little exhausted from TotalCon this weekend.

 

So my comments are based solely on what could happen with the Cavalry models, as a mental exercise. And as I said, first read, my thought was OMG this is insane, it's going to screw the opposing player. Then re-reading and thinking about it, it's going to be a very interesting gambit for the Khamsin players. Because their Cavalry can potentially ride in hell bent and engage troops on that second turn, IF their opponent leaves their own models on the leading edge of their deployment zone, and IF there are no terrain impediments slowing down the Cavalry models. But they would have to hope and pray real hard that charge is very successful, else they would be running the risk of having the delayed troop being placed on their backside, while their foot troops are still about a turn behind trying to catch up. I like this idea because it does help balance things since Khamsin armies, given their point costs, will be smaller than average armies. It will also make Raider a VERY life saving SA for the Khamsin. Because I can envision those Cavalry models, during Turn 3, if they activate first, making discipline checks to break base to base, wheeling back and moving in behind their foot soldiers to get healing (if Defensive Strikes were effective) and prepare for another charge against the newly deployed models.

 

Even without testing it though, I do have a couple specific questions, that will help in testing:

 

When the Delayed troops return to their deployment zone, can they be deployed in base to base contact with Khamsin models within the deployment zone?

 

Is the distance measured to determine length of Delayment from Leading Edge of the Deployment Zone to Leading Edge of the Deployment Zone?

i.e. Deployment is 12" on a 4'x6' table played the long way. So the distance between Zones is 48"?

 

 

 

And I still stand by my comment on changing the name of the SA. If for anything, to avoid confusion when reading the rules between Deployment and Delayment.

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I have to strongly support both a) add an extra turn to the delay and b) mandate the delayed troop entering from a specific point on the edge of the table.

 

(ETA: An alternative to a). The delayed troop enters, and is able to activate, at the END of the turn they leave delay status, just before the Spectral Minions activation phase. Thus on a 2-turn delay they would enter from the specified point on the board-edge as the last troop to activate on turn 3.)

 

I'd have to agree. The description of the skill makes it sound like there are other units that are not part of the army on the table that are actively delaying and harrying the target of the skill, so it makes more sense that they would also get funnelled into a particular area (a specific point on the edge of the table).

 

If the point of the skill was to make up for a grevious lack of numbers (my 1500 pt list tops out at 20 models), then it doesn't seem usable if your cavalry are just going to get stomped after the 1 turn delay, especially if it's going to take more than 1 turn to engage anyway.

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I played a game with this ability (more or less, there were slight differences in the version I used).

 

I prevented the elves from deploying their archers. I ran the Mounted Archers up, and started peppering the Vale Warriors without fear of reprisal from archery. At the same time, the Dervishes ran across the table as fast as possible. To counter the MAs, the elves advanced, which got them up to Dervishes quicker, and at the same time, prevented the warriors from defending their archers when they finally arrived. Then my Raiders broke B2B, and ran down the elf archers. In short, I destroyed the elves.

 

I imagine that the second time the elves would adjust to the tactics and I wouldn't fare so well.

 

PS

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Yeah. Simplest way to avoid that kind of problem: Include a Tactician with the archers. You can't delay a Tactician's unit. And Prince Danny does make a nicely intimidating "Hey, don't mess with me" melee fighter to protect them.

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