Jump to content
Emmel Eitch

People of the Desert Wind

Recommended Posts

I am interested in this - there seem to be 2 camps.

 

Camp A - it's a total self-hose.

 

Camp B - It's a double-edged tengwar, and can be the most awesome thing ever, or a self-hose.

 

Storminator obviously found a way to use it to his advantage, but ECS just got stomped by it. So the real question is: is it a flaw in the SA that you only get good use of it if you play a certain way, or is that the balance that keeps it from being broken? and the secondary question - does it need to be changed?

 

Storminator encountered a specific situation against Elves, where he was able to keep their archers (a significant percentage of their force) off the field and use his own against them. I note his conclusion:

 

I imagine that the second time the elves would adjust to the tactics and I wouldn't fare so well.

 

When you're up against a low-numbers army that isn't prepared for it, it can be devastating, as he proves. Against anyone prepared for it, you end up with my scenario: Rush in, get a few initial hits, and then get hammered by the delayed troops.

 

I would like to playtest it a couple of games with the changes I described above and see how it goes, especially against an opponent who's prepared for it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2 cents from someone who plays against nefsokar fairly often and will probably be play testing this with them this thursday.

 

It sounds like the Faction Abilities are freaking sweet. The problem some might be having is poor army compilation because of a limited list. There are no real fodder and people are trying to use the Cav as such, resulting in their models being overwhelmed.

 

Try changing up the army. Use the ranger move to get those archers in range to shoot the first round and use it to move the cav in a fashion to make your enemy paranoid and to help split his forces.

 

I'm sweeting a bit thinking about how quickly he could be on me, but DEwen will probably have some more info come later this week.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I am interested in this - there seem to be 2 camps.

 

Camp A - it's a total self-hose.

 

Camp B - It's a double-edged tengwar, and can be the most awesome thing ever, or a self-hose.

 

Storminator obviously found a way to use it to his advantage, but ECS just got stomped by it. So the real question is: is it a flaw in the SA that you only get good use of it if you play a certain way, or is that the balance that keeps it from being broken? and the secondary question - does it need to be changed?

 

I don't find it to be extremely powerful.

 

I don't like the ability at all, for reasons that have nothing to do with it's usefulness. I spent good money on my models. I spent a lot of time painting them. I picked my faction because I like the models, and how I can build my army. I don't like abilities that say, in essence, "you can't use your toys." It makes me not want to play vs the faction, and I'm against anything that makes anyone want to not play.

 

I would rather see CDR back in, have the Desert Wind gain Ranger for each model, and suppress Ranger for their foes and call it good.

 

PS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So the real question is: is it a flaw in the SA that you only get good use of it if you play a certain way, or is that the balance that keeps it from being broken? and the secondary question - does it need to be changed?

 

Looking at Delayment in a vaccuum, I thought it was pretty weak. Taken together wiht the rest of the abilities, I think it is a good fit and balanced. SOmetimes it is better not to use it. OK. Sometimes your opponent will have no spell casters and Sokar is near is of no use. Ranger moves are always useful and not to be poo-poo'd. They lose the Death's River ability and gain Ranger moves for all and Delayment. I am firmly in the camp of Delayment is a pretty good balance when you take all of the Cav and Teleporting big baddies they can bring as well as the other two SAs. If Delayment were any more effective, it would be too much.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As someone who will likely play a Desert Wind army (the Khamsin being the reason I was drawn to the Nefsokar in the first place) I'm not too crazy about the Delayment ability, just from reading the description. It seems to make each battle into a fairly narrow scenario. On the other hand, I'm personally not fond of Crossing Death's River (mainly because I hate keeping track of the many, many dead bodies my armies tend to form on the battlefield). So I would like something different for the People of the Desert Wind.

 

Perhaps, in place of Delayment, the Khamsin could be granted some control over their enemy's deployment. Something like this: when an enemy's deployment card comes up (and is not buried by the Spy ability) the Khamsin player can choose which enemy troop must deploy. The opponent would still decide where. Then maybe combine that with a free-floating Spy SA for the Desert Wind army (in addition to any Spies already part of the force). I'm not sure if that's too much or not enough, but it wouldn't be so disruptive to the normal flow of the game.

 

Besides, I want to be able to play Storminator again. He's one of the few players in the area I can beat ::): .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Besides, I want to be able to play Storminator again. He's one of the few players in the area I can beat ::): .

 

Now that hurt. ::P:

 

But you'll have cavalry now, and you'll be able to take it to the Elves. :;):

 

PS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I am interested in this - there seem to be 2 camps.

 

Camp A - it's a total self-hose.

 

Camp B - It's a double-edged tengwar, and can be the most awesome thing ever, or a self-hose.

 

 

It is not a total hose since Nef gets Ranger movement. Granted Nef is already paying for ranger on the Lancers, Rangers, Dervishes as well as others..., but now all get it as well.

 

Beyond the free Ranger move, the delay most of the time will be better for the Nefso's opponent. If this is what was intended then great! If not it is a hose (though not totally). To not be a hose the delayed units need have their deployment narrowed down so that the Cav can use it to their advantage.

 

So that means I'm in...

 

Camp C - It is good to get the Ranger Movement but the rest of the ability is a hose and needs some help.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll say it, I hate the ability...but I think it is neither overpowered nor underpowered. Yes, in the playtest that we did early on he told me of the special ability of the sublist as we were setting up. I was freaked, and when he delayed my archers it hurt. A

 

When I field archers they are only a quarter of my total force strength, if that, so in a 1000pt game I bring a 212pt troop of archers. The rest of the force is built around protecting that force.

 

On the first round, with the extra ranger move and Storm's regular movement the archers were within range to take care of my low DV elves without any reprisals from my troops. I had to take the arrows through the chest, so to speak. The only option I had was to try and take out the archers before the activated again and wiped out my melee troops. When the archers did deploy the were far enough back to lend support to the melee fighters but when Storm's melee guys came at them there was nobody around to keep them alive.

 

In 1000 point games, where your best models can only be fielded in one troop because they are adepts this ability is powerful.

 

For other factions with multiple types of the same adept (Reven bull orc archers and skeeters) delaying one or the other isn't that big of a deal and you would tend to delay the heavy melee fighters instead anyway.

 

The Nefsokar now have several different types of cavalry from archers to differnt types of melee fighters, each with two damage tracks. Sure their DV is lower than the standard melee fighter, but it is better than the base elf warrior and they have two tracks. So you might hit them, but you have to hit them twice to get them down and then they are still tough so there is the chance the get up again.

 

I think if fielded properly the Desert Wind faction can cause a lot of damage. Bring your cavalry in waves, with the lancers and their first strike SA taking out as many emeny models as possibly. The Raiders and Archers hang back in support for the return of the delayed troop. If you get first activation shoot the new troop with your archers. Then, depending on who goes it's a matter of sending the Raiders in to support the Lancers or to attack the newly arrived troop.

 

Be smarter than the English where with their cavalry.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cavalry Heavy

Models with the Cavalry SA take up only one slot (instead of the normal two) for purposes of Troop size.

 

I'm suprised no-one seems to be giving this ability any notice. There is discussion about whether the other three abilities (Sokar is Near, Mobility, and Delayment), are worthwhile, but not a peep that the Nefsokar can field Anwar + 9 Mounted Archers for 505 points. That is one hell of a unit in my opinion.

 

I would suggest that Delayment really only needs 1 thing to make it work much better; force the delayed unit to deploy along the the edge as if they were entering the battlefield late rather than mysteriously dropping them anywhere int he deployment zone.

 

There are comparisons by some that The people of the Desert wind have it hard up because their faction ability isn't up to the standards of Mercy or Paincage.

 

Crusaders only have Mercy + Healing Graces or Judgement + Armor of the Faithful, the Khamsin have Sokar is Near, Mobility, and Delayment, and Cavalry Heavy, that is 4 bloody abilities, some more useful than others, but all worthwhile if used approriately.

 

If the enemy has delayed units punish them with your mounted archers, and keep your army outside of their deployment area if your fear the delayed unit dropping down on you.

 

Send in your Dust Devils, they can get into base-to-base and attack on turn one with their Ranger + non-corporeal + Beast + 12 inch move.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Cavalry Heavy

Models with the Cavalry SA take up only one slot (instead of the normal two) for purposes of Troop size.

 

I'm suprised no-one seems to be giving this ability any notice. There is discussion about whether the other three abilities (Sokar is Near, Mobility, and Delayment), are worthwhile, but not a peep that the Nefsokar can field Anwar + 9 Mounted Archers for 505 points. That is one hell of a unit in my opinion.

 

That will be 1/2 to 1/3 of your army though. Just like the elves for about the same points have 11 archers with all their special shootiness as well as a leader with a bow. I do not see this as a problem but I do not see it as needed if the Deployment of the delayed units is narrowed down to a entry point.

 

I would suggest that Delayment really only needs 1 thing to make it work much better; force the delayed unit to deploy along the the edge as if they were entering the battlefield late rather than mysteriously dropping them anywhere in the deployment zone.

 

I agree with you, with the addition of entry occurs from a point or smaller location than the entire deployment zone. Truthfully though I have not playtested the large cav groups and their impact unlike the other rules.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the delay is better used not to charge in like you were playing with a pile of grunts, but to get in better position. If you charge in unsupported then chances are you will get hammered by reinforcements, so don't do that. Instead, put yourself in command of the battlefield. Delay the archers so that you can seize objectives with impunity, then do guerilla tactics on the grunts. Pick off one here, another there. Attack the enemy units that have already activated so that they can't swarm you imedeately. When the archers arrive, charge them. You can charge as far as they can shoot, take them out as soon as they arrive, then continue your anti-grunt skirmishing. Don't let the enemy use his numbers. Swarm any model he leaves isolated, and don't mess with the big piles of grunts. Pick at those grunts with archers and keep your maneuverable cav out of the way. He will get tired of the sniping and come after you, so then you just re-swarm on the new isolated models. Then continue the archery. This list isn't about speed. It isn't about going first, it's about finesse.

 

 

 

 

 

::(: "the kamsin are so underpowered and the new abilities suck, wah wah wah." ::(:

Aura of jade thorns anyone? feeding the young? Don't talk to me about poor Faction SAs. ::D:::D:::D:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Was thinking about this last night: What about other scenarios (besides kill 'em all)? In a capture the flag forced delayment would be devastating. Same with a take and hold. In the Raid scenario from the Necro book this would be monster. Free ranger move when all other rangers are forced off the board? Add in a delayed troop and the Khamsin might win that scenario before the foes even get started.

 

And yeah, it's much better than the Reptus abilities. ;)

 

PS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Was thinking about this last night: What about other scenarios (besides kill 'em all)? In a capture the flag forced delayment would be devastating. Same with a take and hold. In the Raid scenario from the Necro book this would be monster. Free ranger move when all other rangers are forced off the board? Add in a delayed troop and the Khamsin might win that scenario before the foes even get started.

 

And yeah, it's much better than the Reptus abilities. ;)

 

PS

 

That is my thought - delayment may not be all that great in a straight kill-em-all, but when you have to be somewhere or do something your opponent not being to bring in all their troops can be devatstating.

 

And the Reptus are so Cool that they don't need special abilities ::):

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And the Reptus are so Cool that they don't need special abilities smile.gif

 

 

Of course they are, I would play nothing less than the best. I just don't like to hear anyobody whine but myself. ::D:

 

I dare someone to try and delay my reptus, We eat horses just as well as we eat orcs :grr: .

 

 

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, we played a game last night to try and do a test of this stuff. Well, we at least started a game, only played a couple of turns but it was enough for the purposes of this test.

 

Played 4 player 1000 point each on a 4x6 table with us deploying on the long side with the short attack window. Since the deployment zones were within 24 inches of each other, that meant only one turn delayment.

 

On a note from ReaperMatt, we tested with the following format:

 

1. Delayed troop had to deploy along the edge of the table (basically forcing the picket line instead of a blob).

2. Delayed troop did not have to deploy until their actual activation card was turned up on the 2nd turn, and as such could basically deploy along the edge and then activate them fully.

 

Now for the game...

 

Two teams:

P1 - Nefsokar - 3 troops - 4 initiative cards

P2 - Reptus - 6 troops - 6 cards

vs

P3 - Overlords - 3 troops - 3 cards - 1 troop delayed (Captain, bunch of warriors and Arik the Mage)

P4 - Overlords - 3 troops - 6 initiative cards

 

I wont go into waht all troops were, but since this whole thing relates to Nef Wind People test: Paul brought a troop of mixed mounted archers and raiders, a troop of Senet warlord, cleric, and raiders, and troop of mounted sargeant and raiders. All in all i think he had around 12 horsies on the table. Now that I think about it it might have only been 2 troops with three initiative cards. That wasn't a Sargeant but rather a hero.

 

We also were demoing some of the new Overlord faction abilities in this game as well. One of which was not really announced until after deployment had happened. I wont go into what it was but it affected the Mounted Archers who were on that same end of the table. Changed their gameplan all together. either way, on to the game

 

I can say, being the first time to demo these, the Nefsokar player did not deploy in prime spots to take advantage of Wind ability from the point of view of charging across the table with his mounted warlord,hero,cleric, and raiders.

 

To speed things along, at the end of turn 1, Nef mounties were in B2B with roughly 1/2 of the charging horses,again the initial deployment did not allow all charging horses to get into B2B. I define charging as those intending to get into b2b, thus archers are not included. Of those that achieved B2B, only about half made it on the first move allowing for combat when they got there. Minimal damage occured.

 

Reptus of course are decent speed for two leggers but cant match the pace of the horsies and we just do our best to get across the table.

 

Most Overlord troops generally hung back a little or atleast only slowly advanced. There was a troop with a nasty new Overlord Warlord and lots of warriors that charged out to meet the oncoming Reptus.

 

That was pretty much it for the first turn.

 

Second turn again, the new Overlord abilities make themselves felt. Until I get permission I wont go into detail.

1. The new Overlord warlord troop rams into the picket fence of reptus, but horrible rolling on both sides gives minimal damage.

2. New Overlord adepts double move to tie up the nef mounted archers.

3. Reptus fight the new OLord warlord and take more damage than they give.

4. Mounted Nef warlord takes damage and is hurt bad after only one hit. His new DV is only an 8 now. A couple of Raiders die, but later make their tough rolls.

5. Reptus and overlords are still trying to get into b2b, achieve a few and reptus gets the better of those.

6. Delayed OLord troop activated. They form their picket line along the back edge of the table, then immediately charge in. Because the original OLords never really moved, the new arrivals were able to achieve B2B in several spots right away. Arik the mage takes a few steps and auto hits with ice shards the Nef Warlord who has an MD of 8 on the level 1 DT. Then the warrior that was able to charge into b2b with the same warlord plunks a hit on him now to track 3. Another warrior able to coup de gras a stunned Raider nearby.

7. Reptus trolls get a few good swings in and take a couple of warriors.

 

Turn 2 over.

 

Game was called because of me. I was never suppose to start up in a big game. But I had given in to the temptation instead of insisting on a lower point game. After two phone calls from the wife. I could not ignore anymore...

 

So, the game ended, but it was enough to see a few things.

 

Now every game will be different based on force make up, terrain, etc.. but the observations I made were some that were kinda brought up here earlier:

 

Combination of the two options that I think could work:

  1. Nef player should declare the delayed group AFTER depoyment but before the ranger moves. Then, after delayment is over, delayed troop is set back into the same position.
  2. Delayed troop should take a noncombat move to get onto the table, and thus have one remaining action (that could be a combat action if they have one to make) but not two full actions.

This way, several things are acheived.

  • Delayed unit does not get the bonus of changing his deployment location based on the Nefsokar tactics and game results
  • Nefsokar group does not have to worry about being swarmed AND attacked the turn that the delayed group comes on table (this is not to say they cannot be swarmed OR attacked as warriors could swarm and archers could fire, but could not have warriors swarm and attack, archers move int LOS if out of it and then fire, etc..)
  • But, does not give Nefsokar complete safety either as it is possible for delayed troop to have combat when they get on the table (see above).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×