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Crusader Questions

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As someone pointed out, there is some confusion with the new book.

 

The wording on Mercy has changed a little and the changes are thought by some to mean something and by others, something else.

Q: When you are attemtping to use Mercy after making successful attacks or attack, what DIS do you use for the opponent?

 

Helm of the Hawk

Q: There are four Crusdaers with ranged attacks. Three are mages with 6" range and one is Acacia who is a sgt with 24" range. Does the Helm of the Hawk confer a ranged attack ability and a range? I'm thinking "not" as it would say that if it were the case.

Q: If you must already have a ranged attack to use Helm of the Hawk, Acacia is the only model who can properly use it and she already has Blazer. Can the girl get a discount?

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and just clarifying that indeed the target of a successful mercy does not take any of the damage from the entire attacking troop on the activation it was mercied, rather than just not taking damage from the mercying unit.

 

Personally, as a biased non crusader, I would prefer only the mercying unit's damage to be revoked as that could potentially be too powerful, having crusaders run around in mobs and just mercy everything based on having 9 guys surrounding them..

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I've always read Mercy to leave the opponent on their last track. Page 54 of the Crusader book seems pretty clear that you attempt Mercy when you've scored enough hits to kill or stun a model. You have an opposed DIS test against the target model, using the model's DIS on its last track. If you win, you get control of a badly wounded model. If the Crusader player loses the DIS roll, then the badly wounded model remains under the control of its original controller.

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thats the way I "want" it to be too, but as someone pointed out in the other thrad that this was split off from, that is not necessarily how it is written in the faction book (where the faction book is different from the core book).

 

Hence, my asking for clarification...

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That's how I read it in the faction book. I think the corebook was possibly less clear or had different wording and that may be where the confusion comes from?

 

On Page 54 in the Crusader Faction Book it says that a Crusader model who has caused enough damage to take a target model beyond its last damage track, may offer mercy instead of killing the model. It goes on to say that the DIS check is against the target's DIS on its last Damage track. Then it says that if the Crusader wins the DIS test, the model joins the Crusader player's forces, on its last damage track. If the Target Model wins, he stays opposed to the Crusader player, alive and on his last damage track. It seems pretty well spelled out.

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I've always played it where they came back on their last damage track and as such if I mercy anyone it's usually the grunts or 1 track adepts so I don't lose anything. But yeah, I'd like some clarification on which way this should go as well.

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and just clarifying that indeed the target of a successful mercy does not take any of the damage from the entire attacking troop on the activation it was mercied, rather than just not taking damage from the mercying unit.

 

Personally, as a biased non crusader, I would prefer only the mercying unit's damage to be revoked as that could potentially be too powerful, having crusaders run around in mobs and just mercy everything based on having 9 guys surrounding them..

First off, PLEASE try not to read my post as offensive, nor targetting you specifically.

There are plenty of times that I have critisized Reaper of not being clear enough in the rulebooks. However, is anyone here REALLY confused with the following wording? (emphasis mine)

If the Crusader rolls equal to or higher than the target model, then the target model does not take any of the damage dealt by the troop from Close Combat attacks.

Honestly, how much clearer can that be? Do we really need an 'official' ruling on something so clear?

 

 

 

Then it says that if the Crusader wins the DIS test, the model joins the Crusader player's forces, on its last damage track.

Not in my copy of the Faction book it doesn't. Mine says "the target model does not take any of the damage dealt by the troop "

 

I'm really not trying to be a jerk here, but I am befuddled at anyones confusion with this seemingly well-written rule. :blink:

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confusion is only because, as you yourself pointed out, it is different than in the core book.

 

also, just as you pointed out the difference in wording between for example a group of cruaders attacking a fully untouched hill giant, enough in that one activation that they kill it, but offer mercy instead, then the Hill giant has to roll against the mercy check with its last track (even though it started the turn untouched) against the crusaders whatever he is at...

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That's where I have a problem. It seems that it should be the DIS of whatever DT is was on when Mercy was declared.

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and just clarifying that indeed the target of a successful mercy does not take any of the damage from the entire attacking troop on the activation it was mercied, rather than just not taking damage from the mercying unit.

 

Personally, as a biased non crusader, I would prefer only the mercying unit's damage to be revoked as that could potentially be too powerful, having crusaders run around in mobs and just mercy everything based on having 9 guys surrounding them..

First off, PLEASE try not to read my post as offensive, nor targetting you specifically.

There are plenty of times that I have critisized Reaper of not being clear enough in the rulebooks. However, is anyone here REALLY confused with the following wording? (emphasis mine)

If the Crusader rolls equal to or higher than the target model, then the target model does not take any of the damage dealt by the troop from Close Combat attacks.

Honestly, how much clearer can that be? Do we really need an 'official' ruling on something so clear?

 

 

 

Then it says that if the Crusader wins the DIS test, the model joins the Crusader player's forces, on its last damage track.

Not in my copy of the Faction book it doesn't. Mine says "the target model does not take any of the damage dealt by the troop "

 

I'm really not trying to be a jerk here, but I am befuddled at anyones confusion with this seemingly well-written rule. :blink:

 

That's interesting.... I hadn't realised this before, but the mercy-target not only doesn't take damage from the merciful one, but also doesn't take damage from the rest of the troop. Thanks for quoting the book!

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The final 'proof' is this quote, also from Mercy, emphasis mine:

Additionally, since the enemy model is not being slain, wounded, or even stunned, Toughness (and Special Abilities similar as well as Spells or Equipment like it that rely on the Model being wounded, killed, or stunned to work) do not apply.
It says very clearly that anything requiring the wounding of a model to work, does not work, because the converted model is not wounded.

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EDIT: I reread the thing purposfully trying to read it the other way, and I CAN see that it is a little ambiguous in its wording. I think my interpretation is right, but I can see why some find it confusing. ;)

 

We're all friends here, so don't worry overmuch aobut tone. I assume that people hate to type as do I and you are being concise. ;)

 

In order to attempt the SA called Mercy you must "inflict enough damage to reduce an enemy Model beyond its last damage track..."

 

You must have caused at least a point of damage as per paragraph II on p54.

 

The Model offerred Mercy is on its last damage track for the Dis roll and after the Dis roll, regardless of who wins the roll as per the second paragraph. It lays out the 2 possible results, both of which leave the target model on its last damage track.

 

Paragraph III explains the effect of Mercy on troop composition and size and so on.

 

Paragraph IV talks about Mercy and its interaction with other SAs.

 

This language:

Additionally, since the enemy model is not being slain, wounded, or even stunned, Toughness (and Special Abilities similar as well as Spells or Equipment like it that rely on the Model being wounded, killed, or stunned to work) do not apply.

 

...is potentially confusing, but when read after the other paragraphs which are very clear, it cannot possibly mean that the model takes no damage, but rather that Mercy itself, causes no damage. The Damage taken that round is a necessary trigger for offering Mercy. Mercy causes nothing to happen other than a change of loyalty or not.

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I've been playing this game for a long time, and have never ever whinged about a rule being "broken"..until now.

 

If it is correct (not a typo) that a successful Mercy causes the Mercied model to join the Crusaders unwounded (or only as wounded as it was before that round of close combat started), whereas a failed Mercy check merely causes the Unwilling-To-Accept-Mercy model to stand reeling on it's last legs whilst surrounded by angry Crusaders...and the Mercy check is opposed Dis rolls AFTER combat has occurred (i.e. last track), then yeah...it's not fair. It was plenty powerful enough before, and is now Uber.

 

Which raises another sticky question...CAN a model inflict a wound upon ITSELF as a countermeasure to Mercy? :lol:

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OK , after seeing these muttering I'm going to way in with my read on the situation .

"To Mercy a figure you must do enough damage to reduce it to it's last damage track , now that damage is not actually physical damage whether the Mercy is successful but is if it is not . " :blink::blink:

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