Jump to content
Emmel Eitch

Changes introduced with Data Cards 1.2

Recommended Posts

After having a little while to chew them over I'm not too upset by all the changes except the Adept status change of some models now limiting army builds untill new ones come out . Also , a bit disappointed that my faction books are a bit redundant , but I'll get over it . :down:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand the reasons, can see the problems it's causing players with many warrior models. I think it was the right thing to do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually I'm a bit pleased with the fact that the conflicting database issue has been addressed even IF it means a few of my models got a bit more costly in my army-build. Overall my list (Reven) came out fairly well. It's good to see the Elves got a boost, and that the Soul Cannon is no longer the doomsday-device it used to be. I think in the end the game will be better for it.

 

Now...when will we be able to get all-new 1.2 updated faction cards from the Asylum?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Now...when will we be able to get all-new 1.2 updated faction cards from the Asylum?

 

Well, we working on a way to automate the entire process of Data Card creation (well, Kit is working on it anyway ::): ). With this revamp in how we create Data Cards, the front will reflect any changes made to the Data Cards in the 1.2 update. Until this happens, Reaper Bryan manually makes all of the fronts of the Data Cards. So I would expect to have 1.2 cards available sometime after Gen Con.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Meh. I've made my feelings clear already. I'm done commenting, other than to say I'm done commenting. From this point, I'll stick to observations from game-play and wait for the promised land...

 

~v

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly, as an elf player I am quite happy with the changes.

 

I do see how and why some people can be upset with the status change of their models from grunt to adept, but at the moment there is nothing to be done about it. The change was made and we either have to give up on Warlord or figure out how to make the new changes work to our advantge. Easier for some not for others.

 

I would hope that people can see how interested Reaper is in their opinions and will stick with the game. I am invested, and like the way Reaper listens to what we have to say and tries to fix our problems, be it with errata, replacment models, or other fixes. This is a good company.

 

I've tried other gaming systems and sold my armies on ebay because they were run like machines.

 

The atmosphere Reaper fosters is much better to our hobby.

 

That's it from me on this as well. . .stop, :ph34r: time . . . da na na na can't touch this!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll move my opinions to a clean thread, and hopefully everything will be easier to read with it all together.

 

Pros:

I love having a central, always up to date location for the datacards. It is great already to know exactly where to find the latest version of a given model.

As a game grows fixs will need to be made, points will need to be adjusted, stats tweaked, and the game will need to be rebalanced with the introduction of new figures. Doing this all at once is awesome. I would rather yank the band-aid off than to slowly tug it and pull out each hair it is stuck to :)

Having them in a format for easy printing is a huge bonus.

 

Cons:

The changing of a models type is a huge disadvantage to most players whom use that faction.

There are several basic reasons such as:

  • a person generally buys more of some types than others and may be left with extras that they spent alot of time painting and putting together.
  • Changing the type, be it from hero to solo, or grunt to adept, changes the way that model is used in the game. Examples of this include:
    • A grunt generally used in a mixed troop. Such as a troop containing Warriors, Reach models, and Breakers. This combination of models is good for many different tactical reasons.
    • Adepts are usually Rare models in an army, are more expensive in points, and have special abilities or outstanding stat lines that make them unique and special.
    • Adepts are usually kept in a troop by themselves or with few models of other types. Generally this is because their special abilities do not work well with other generic grunts, or because the adept is more advantageous to use.
    • The above items eventually effect the way the model is used in game:
      • A mixed troop of grunts usually work together to accomplish goals, Reach models supporting, breakers creating holes in the lines, and deflecting incoming attacks and blocking LOS.
      • A troop of adepts are usually designed for a specific task. Cavalry can ignore ranged fire and charge towards important locations. Archers can attack from affar without facing defensive strikes. Dervishers and Rangers can gain ground early in battle, but are easy to hit dispite having a melee advantage. Multiple damage tracks for staying power in battle, etc..

    [*]The largest consequence of shuffling models into different roles are going to be the holes they leave behind. When a warrior becomes an adept, he leaves his breakers and reach models in the mixed grunt troops completely defenseless. A Reach model that is an adept is border line useless, they would usually only be supporting each other; this is probably why Paint Tenders are considered to be Grunts in Darkspawn armies.

    [*]To change a Models Type is not needed. It is one of many approaches to balance a game.

    Perhaps a change like this would be better recieved if it came with something that made it so it isn't permanent, such as the Army of Justice or Bull Orc sublist. But taking into account the changed factions will not have a book for this type of change for another year, that seems unlikely.

Conclusion:

Some can argue whether this change is good or bad for the specific model, but it's all subjective. If a model was created a specific way we would have no say in what role it would play.

I truly believe that giving a model a specific role for 2 years then changing it and leaving holes that won't be patched for an entire year is a bad change.

Regardless of current changes of stats(they're bound to change again::P: ), it's the game I love, and it's the game I don't see myself quiting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I keep envisioning a conversation at the FLGS:

 

potential newbie: "So, this book is all the rules I need to play?"

veteran player: "That has all the rules, yeah. And the updated stat cards are online."

potential newbie: "Hunh?"

veteran player: "To get the most up-to-date stats for the armies, you need to go online, register at the web site, and then download all of the cards for the armies you want to use."

potential newbie: "So, this book is out of date? When are they coming out with the new one?"

veteran player: "They haven't said yet."

potential newbie: "This army book came out last month -- is it still good?"

veteran player: "It has the fluff, and the army sublists, and new spells. You can get the updated cards free on the web site."

potential newbie: "So are they updating this one?"

veteran player: "...I don't know when that might be."

potential newbie: "So all the stuff that they have that's out, is now out of date? Why would I want to buy this when it's already obsolete?"

 

Seriously, to anyone who's a BL -- how the heck do you handle this conversation? How can you do a sales job on books that you know are outdated?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Print out the cards and have some at your FLGS. I know its a pain but it does helps getting the newbies teeth sunk into the game. The lack of current books isn't easy but with a bit of a nudge we can help it over the current hump.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I keep envisioning a conversation at the FLGS:

 

potential newbie: "So, this book is all the rules I need to play?"

veteran player: "That has all the rules, yeah. And the updated stat cards are online."

potential newbie: "Hunh?"

veteran player: "To get the most up-to-date stats for the armies, you need to go online, register at the web site, and then download all of the cards for the armies you want to use."

potential newbie: "So, this book is out of date? When are they coming out with the new one?"

veteran player: "They haven't said yet."

potential newbie: "This army book came out last month -- is it still good?"

veteran player: "It has the fluff, and the army sublists, and new spells. You can get the updated cards free on the web site."

potential newbie: "So are they updating this one?"

veteran player: "...I don't know when that might be."

potential newbie: "So all the stuff that they have that's out, is now out of date? Why would I want to buy this when it's already obsolete?"

 

Seriously, to anyone who's a BL -- how the heck do you handle this conversation? How can you do a sales job on books that you know are outdated?

I'm not kidding when I say I had this same conversation just 3 hours ago. I'm going to print out every stat for every faction and give them the update. They can get it online, but if they show the slightest doubt in that system, thats when the print outs come in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After thinking about this and talking to some people, my take is that the changes (many of them) had to be made.

 

Take the Reptus book. It is likely and follows the pattern of other factions, that Warriors will be grunts in the Faction Book and a sublist or leader will allow for more. If Reaper knew this and kept them grunts for the next year when the book hits, many more people would get screwed by buying too many warriors. :shrug: Better to cut out the little tumor than to let it grow.

 

There are a lot more average to n00b players of Warlord than there are in other games. It's something to do with the way the game grew on a painting and RPGing forum. Reaper's market is dominated by the NON-hardcore Gamer. They must cater to their market and hope to keep the competitive gamer interested as well. I need to think on what this means as far as my competitive level in the game. Maybe I need to approach it differently than I do Warmachine, where ccg-esque combos are a ig part of the game.

 

Anywho, pdfs are not written in stone, so let's keep the discussion going and see where that takes us. Reaper does not like attacks or unsupported assertions, but they do like reasoned opinions from their fans, even when the opinion is that they are being dooty-heads.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Changes will occur with any game once it hits a larger number of gamers.

 

No matter how extensive playtest is, there will be issues that will only arise once more gamers' ideas and thoughts are added to the equation.

 

A game can continue with the problems that were not originally identified, and suffer for it, or it can make changes percieved as needed. Those perceptions might be as flawed as the original ideas, and need further change, but only time and further testing can tell. Chess has not changed significantly for some time, but look at the modern variants and historical versions of the game for a simple example.

 

Warlord is a game.

 

Players are welcome to use whatever rules structure they wish, so long as the people playing any particular game agree. House rules can be added or not. Official errata can be honored or not.

 

Local interpretation of rules will create more issues as the game continues to grow.

 

A rules change shifting a model from one status to another for Reaper events is no more limiting than a rules stricture that only 300 points and three models may be used in an event. Rules limiting the total point value of an army likewise put limits on the models that can be used.

 

Any specific event can hold true to what rules they want, and it is appropriate so long as the participants know of any changes beforehand.

 

An official event that specifies specific builds for each faction is an acceptable rule, because people are not required to use it everywhere.

 

An official event that specifies only specific and limited factions are allowed is likewise an acceptable rule.

 

Reaper has identified problems with the initial rules structure for army builds based off feedback as the game has grown. They have implemented changes based on their consideration of that feedback. They have masde those changes as available as they could to the gaming community as a whole.

 

No player has to agree with those changes. If they are playing with people that do agree with the changes, they will have to work out what rules they will use. If they are playing with people who agree with them, they can play however they like. Local events will use the event organizer's interpretation. Reaper events will obviously use Reaper's interpretation.

 

I've thrown several issues I've found since I started Warlord at a playtester I know. Until I hear an official response, I will use personal interpretation for each of them. Official interpretation may vary quite a bit from my fixes. When I hear official ideas, I will use them if I want, or in any official event I attend, but am free to ignore them otherwise.

 

I play 40K 1st & 2nd ed, but rarely 3rd. I play Warzone 1st ed much more often than 2nd, and never bothered with 3rd. I play Chronopia 1st ed, but not 2nd. I play Clan War 2nd ed, but not 1st. I play Warmachine, but refuse to compete in the Steamroller tournament format.

 

In short, when I play a game, I play the way I enjoy. I've never stopped playing with models and rules I like because I play for enjoyment. I play hard. I play competitively. In the end, however, I'm playing games for amusement, and if it isn't fun, I shouldn't play.

 

Suggesting Reaper has done people wrong in making the changes they felt were needed is ludicrous. Nobody is forcing anyone to play. Nobody is forcing anyone to compete in specific ways.

 

Any event gives players a choice; play with whatever strictures are in place for that event (point limits, build limits, scenario limits, or whatever), or play with someone else.

 

How you decide to play is up to you, not Reaper. Reaper just gave us a good game and good miniatures to play with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do I like it? ABSOLUTELY not.

Do I see the need for it? YES.

Am I going to keep playing? Yes, but I'll be a bit miffed for the next half dozen times or so I play until all my lists and armies get updated.

The fact that I now have a holder full of useless cards doesn't sit very well with me either. I'm just glad Reaper wasn't at Origins or my swag would have gone to more useless cardstock.

 

The only thing I like about the changes is you can highlight and copy the card info instead of saving the entire image.

 

Can we get the card lists in alphabetical order instead of rank?

 

I have to agree with axgrrl, that these changes have all but gutted sales on the faction books already out as reference tools. They are now little more than overpriced fiction at this point. I might be wrong, but several of the starter boxed sets are also toast in terms of being 750 pt forces. Makes it rough explaining to newbies.

 

With all due respect, next time such a radical change is planned (God forbid), a little warning would be nice. Even if it were a brief notice. When you jack the whole game and even your Black Lightning guys are in the dark until they are broadsided, then in my opinion, something is seriously wrong in the lines of communication.

 

Finally, were the abilities standardized to a true point value to allow characters to be systematically setup (e.g. breaker always 5Pts, Reach 5, etc.) or were the changes just on a whim to bring balance to the Force? I'm sure there was a "lot" of work involved on the inside, but it seems a bit whimsical to me as an outsider.

 

If this is harsh, I'm sorry. I waited a week to try to cool off.

 

 

p.s. Gus deserves a medal and a big fat thank you. He managed to keep me from ranting a whole lot more than I have.

Gus - The work on the cards and rooting out errata is much appreciated my friend!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×