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spiritual_exorcist

Default/Sub-faction lists

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Ok, as has been discussed in the Crusaders Tactics forum, it is possible to build a sub-faction list that also conforms to the Default list (An army build that can be used as either an Army of Justice, or a Default Crusader list). At what point does the choice need to be made as to which army variant you are fielding?

 

Obviously the army type should be decided on prior to deployment, and once chosen you'd have to stick with your choice for the entirety of the game, but should you be able to wait until you find out what faction you are playing against prior to deciding which faction/sub-faction abilities your force will use.

 

Meaning can I build my Crusader force to be both Army of Justice, and Crusader Default lists, and use the Army of Justice abilities against Evil factions, or Factions I deem to have enough Evil models to warrant using the Army of Justice, while employing the Default Crusader abilites when I fight others.

 

At what point do I need to declare my sub-faction, and if I am playing in a tournament setting can I switch between faction/sub-faction abilites between games?

As I've mentioned in the other thread, the Crusaders/Army of Justice appears to be the only real enticing combination as the Army of Justice have fairly limited powers unless fielding them against Evil forces. Crypt Legion, and Tomuhk sub-list both sacrifice variety in favor of abilites that better suit the models you would choose for the sub-list; I can't see anyone wanting to play a Crypt Legion build as a Default, or a TOmukh as a Default. I'm not really familair with the Nefosokar so I can't comment.

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Me, as agreed upon with my opponent, but whatever we decided I'd let 'em know I had built one that was valid in either.

 

Interesting question!

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At what point do I need to declare my sub-faction, and if I am playing in a tournament setting can I switch between faction/sub-faction abilites between games?

I suppose that would vary depending on who was running the tournament and what guidelines they set forth. For example, in the monthly Asylum tournaments, players register what army list they are using the special abilities from when they sign up.

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Thanks Michael.

 

Anyone else have any thoughts?

 

I'm on the fence with this one, building your force to that it fits into both default and sub-faction limits your choices in your build severely compared to either the sub-faction or default lists. I'm tempted to say in most pick up games I could care less if my opponent decided which sub-list they were playing until we were ready to deploy. I do agree in a tournament it seems likely that picking a sub-faction and sticking to it would be best. The main army who this is of concern to is the Army of Justice simply because they have decent faction abilities against Evil models, but fairly limited ones against everyone else (they're sitting at short of the Stick along with the Reptus when it comes to faction powers if they arn't facing an Evil heavy force).

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Being still relatively new to Warlord I'll offer my 2 cents from a different perspective since I've been playing Warhammer since the late 80's.

 

In a tournament I would assume that you have to register for it and therefore you declare your army at the time when you sign up.

 

For an in store 'friendly' game though it's a little different, as it's relatively easy to see who you're playing and to tailor your army against that particular faction. I haven't met anyone who does it in Warlord yet, but in Warhammer there were a few in my circle of friend I gamed with who would frequenty wait to see who they're playing against before they even pick which army they're using (by bringing more than one army with them). Or worse, they would wait to make an army list until they knew 1) who their opponant was and 2) What army they were playing. Those who did that quickly found themselves without anyone to play against. To me that defeats the purpose of a friendly game, to wait to see what you're facing that is.

 

My soapbox is that for me at least, I have my army list printed out beforehand. Sure I have more than one at 750, a trio at 1000, and two 1500 armies, but it mostly comes down to little tweaks and not anything that is geared to fight a specific army such as deciding to use an Army of Justice because your opponant happens to be playing Necropolis rather than Elves or Mercs.

 

And yes, I know this is someting that bothers me and my post probably shows it more than I intend it to...but to me customizing an army against specific armies isn't beneficial to the game, detracts from people enjoying playing because your general rarely knows what exactly they might happen across out there in the field. So for me, decide before you know who you're playing against or what you're playing against.

 

And since you didn't know about the Nefsokar, that's my 'current' army as I'm awaiting the O'Lords book...for me I vastly prefer the default Nef. list to the Desert Wind list, then again I'm not that into cavalry so that might be a good reason why.

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As far as the Tomukh vs. Grand Reven list goes, taking a Tomukh list as Grand Reven would mainly be useful when going up against the Dwarves: given that Bane negates Tough (thereby rendering Innate:Warcry useless and Enrage really suicide), going Grand Reven at least nets you Ridgerunner and Mob Mentality.

 

Only works for games at 1000 or less and certain builds at 1000 for that matter.

 

I do think that it's just a courteous thing to do (in a friendly game) to declare before you deploy and not decide a few turns into the game.

 

Ron

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I do think that it's just a courteous thing to do (in a friendly game) to declare before you deploy and not decide a few turns into the game.

 

I agree, without question it needs to be declared before the game actually begins.

 

I'll take enraged over Mob Mentality and Ridge Runner even against Dwarves, but your point is well taken.

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Ok, as has been discussed in the Crusaders Tactics forum, it is possible to build a sub-faction list that also conforms to the Default list (An army build that can be used as either an Army of Justice, or a Default Crusader list). At what point does the choice need to be made as to which army variant you are fielding?

My opinion is that it would have been better if the sub-factions had their sub-faction abilities in addition to the default faction abilities. Then this issue would have been moot. It would have also made a lot more sense; I don't see the logic behind the exact same army having different abilities based on the whim of which sub-faction the player chooses. That would take some tortured fluff to explain.

 

Rich

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My take would be the same as Weltrath - in a tourney you declare it at the beginning. Friendly games, while you could do it however you and your opponent agree upon, I would declare before setup.

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My opinion is that it would have been better if the sub-factions had their sub-faction abilities in addition to the default faction abilities. Then this issue would have been moot. It would have also made a lot more sense; I don't see the logic behind the exact same army having different abilities based on the whim of which sub-faction the player chooses. That would take some tortured fluff to explain.

 

Rich

 

You'd have to tone down the faction powers alot to have this occur, Judgement vs. Evil + Mercy would be extremely dominating.

 

I think the fluff can easily be explained simply by the armies goals. In one case they are focused on sparing the enemy and showing them the light, in another they are focused on the ultimate destruction of Evil in the name of Aurellius. I don't see why or how these are conflicting. It is simply a matter of the armies mindset. To be employing both in the same game seems like more of a conflict fluff wise.

 

Crusader Default:

Duke Gerard "Show them Mercy and Guidance through the light of Aurellius. Kill only those whose hearts are too foregone into the darkness for our words to reach."

 

Crusader Army of Justice:

Duke Gerard "Stand strong against the darkness children of Aurellius, for he shall blanket us in his light and laden us with the tools required to smite these black-hearted wretches into oblivion; no longer shall they be a blight upon Taltos when our swords run red with their vile ichor."

 

The Crusaders are Divine force, their differing faction abilities can easily be explained away by the Will of Auriellius in any given situation. I don't believe there is any tortured fluff involved.

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Ok, as has been discussed in the Crusaders Tactics forum, it is possible to build a sub-faction list that also conforms to the Default list (An army build that can be used as either an Army of Justice, or a Default Crusader list). At what point does the choice need to be made as to which army variant you are fielding?

My opinion is that it would have been better if the sub-factions had their sub-faction abilities in addition to the default faction abilities. Then this issue would have been moot. It would have also made a lot more sense; I don't see the logic behind the exact same army having different abilities based on the whim of which sub-faction the player chooses. That would take some tortured fluff to explain.

 

Rich

Isn't this the case for Necropolis at least . Both sub-factions have "Fear of Undead" SA . :blink: Idon't know about the Nekfosar (still waiting for my book ) so I can't comment on whether "Sokar is near" ia available to their sub-factions .

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While I certainly agree that it only makes sense that a player must declare what sort of force they are fielding prior to deployment in a game, I can see no logical nor sensible reason why they could not change between being a normal pure faction army and a sub faction force between games in a tournament. If the player has chosen to field a force that can fit legally in both categories, they should be able to choose which set of faction abilities they wish to take advantage of during each new game. Bear in mind, by creating such a build, not only has the player bound themselves to the restriction of the sub-faction, but they have also given up some of the abilities of the faction (in being able to take more of a model that would otherwise be restricted). This limited model selection should effectively off-set any tactical advantage gained in creating a flexible faction in this manner.

 

As an aside, it also just doesn't make sense that an army would not be able to access their SAs when their tactics would dictate that they should. Why shouldn't a Crusader army, that qualifies as a Army of Judgement sublist but starts a tournament as a straight faction, be able to try to Mercy a Neutral or Good faction in a first-round bout, and then be Hell-bent for destruction as a Judgement list against an Evil force?

 

I'd be interested to see how one of these convertible armies would fare in a tournament environment.

 

~v

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I would suggest that such an army would be fun to play but you probably wouldn't fare all that well, because like you say, the army would be sacrificing alot to make itself fit both molds.

 

Mainly if you wanted to use any sort of numbers you'd have to start relying on Ironspines and Unforgiven, which are both decent when paired with other units, but don't stand alone very well.

 

I like the idea of being about to swap back and forth between opponents, I just worry about people accusing one of being a power gamer in doing so. The truth of the matter is your army would be less powerful in this case than if you went pure default, likely even against Evil heavy forces.

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I am highly inclined to agree with that assessment, but I'd like to see it played out, for grins. I even went so far as to knock out a "switch-hitter" list at 1000 points. I may try it when I get some more of my Crusader minis painted up, just to monkey around with it and see if it can win at all, let alone regularly.

 

~v

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I've been thinking about this, and I have to say that I think that the choice of models determines which faction/sub-faction is being played. If an army meets the requirements for the Army of Justice sub-faction, then it is the Army of Justice sub-faction, not a default Crusader army. An army is only a default faction army if it is not a sub-faction army; that is what "default" means. This issue seems to me to be identical to a all-Nefsokar army declaring that it is a freelance army in a multiplayer game so that their Darkspawn allies are not nerfed. It is not a choice. It is what they are.

 

Rich

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