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rcrosby

Scrye Shot, Blazer and Multiple Attacks

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I've accepted it as part of the game, but myself and the other four people who have played the game in our area find it a bit hokey. I see your point though.

 

while i haven't fielded Eawod, yet, i plan on doing so . . .but only in 1501+pt games and never against the crypt legion. sure the pie-plate-o-doom is awesome but to get the biggun you have to use marksman and your opponent can counter that with either cavalry or other speedy models that can run over and stark whacking your archers.

 

 

Eawod with 10 archers totals 859 pts. it doesn't leave much for speed bumps to slow the enemy advance.

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According to the rule book: page 62 "Multiple Attacks And Volley Fire Participation"

 

"A model with multiple attacks that participates in a volley cannot divide its number of attacks between volley and other forms of ranged attacks; all of its attacks are used during the volley attack."

 

If all ranged attacks have to be used in a volley and can not be seperated how can a model with Scrye shot use it in a volley when it is the second shot. He had to use his first shot in the volley. The volley is already in process before the Scrye shot is used. It seems pretty clear.

 

Scrye shot is the most expensive SA in the game because it is powerful to the point of being unfair, thus the high cost. If every model with scrye shot was a blazer I may say yeah, I guess they meant for it to happen but that is not the case. Greka and Thorgrim can not blazer but they still pay the high price.

 

Scrye shot was not meant to be an ability used by ten archers simultaniously. Elf players should be happy they can do indirect volley from behind cover and get an AoE the size of a small pizza. Being able to fire through terrain and ignore all LOS rules for an entire army is kind of hokey.

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If a Model w/ Scrye Shot & Blazer makes only a single shot, that needed for targetting an Indirect Volley, that is their first shot, AND their last shot.

 

You are not required to make every attack allowed by #RA.

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If all ranged attacks have to be used in a volley and can not be seperated how can a model with Scrye shot use it in a volley when it is the second shot.

 

It looks to me like you can't use scrye shot in a volley attack. Maybe I'm alone in this but it seems fair to me. The volley and the normal ranged attack (scrye is part of a normal ranged attack) are different. You shouldn't be able to do both during one activation.

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Line of sight is one of the cornerstones of any tabletop game. Period. The shootiness of the elf army is obviously supposed to be their strong point, but the "ignore solid rock cover" thing and shoot anything on the board is definitely hokey. I would think some better special ability could come into play.

 

We've been thinking of just going freelance, and doing away with army special abilities to see how that plays.

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If all ranged attacks have to be used in a volley and can not be seperated how can a model with Scrye shot use it in a volley when it is the second shot.

 

It looks to me like you can't use scrye shot in a volley attack. Maybe I'm alone in this but it seems fair to me. The volley and the normal ranged attack (scrye is part of a normal ranged attack) are different. You shouldn't be able to do both during one activation.

 

I totally agree.

 

The definition of Scrye says it can be used as a single shot and none of the model's other RAs have the Scrye ability. It also says it has to be the last shot. The definition of volley says you have to use all your shots. If Scrye has to be a single ranged attack and has to be the last shot, then you can not choose to not use the first shot to get to the last one when volleying because a volley requires all shots.

 

Even if a scrye model could lead the volley... which they can't, but, if they could why on earth do you guys think every archer in the troop would get it? You can't endow an SA on a whole troop because one model has it. Sure they could fire with the blazer but they still wouldn't be able to ignore the obstructions. So if anything is in the way: a mountain, a house, an orc that is what the volley would hit. It is not a blazer shot and even if it was the others could not ignore obstructions.

 

Scrye shot should be looked at as a guided missle or a magic arrow. The other archers don't have it. The Scrye arrow is going through obstructions magically and not just finding some thin line of sight. You can shoot a character that is sealed in a tomb, or in a building with absolutely no LOS, it is traveling through the wall or other figs, so it iseems pretty clear that it is a magic item.

 

Once upon a time, Thorgrim and some piecers snuck up to the Witch Queen's evil castle. She was inside making a breakfast of Broken Fodder and eggs. Thorgrin is standing outside the castle wall, "Arrow, arrow in my quiver, find your way to the Witch Queen's liver." The volley lets loose and all the arrows bounce off the wall but the King's, which magically disappears through the stone wall. Then the Witch Queen is coughing up bile and bleeding like a stuck pig.

 

The moral of the story is... Only one of the arrows was magical, only one was Scrye shot.

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Line of sight is one of the cornerstones of any tabletop game. Period. The shootiness of the elf army is obviously supposed to be their strong point, but the "ignore solid rock cover" thing and shoot anything on the board is definitely hokey. I would think some better special ability could come into play.

 

We've been thinking of just going freelance, and doing away with army special abilities to see how that plays.

 

 

I don't mind most of the abilities and the elves superior LOS doesn't bother me, nor does indirect volley because both are possible. But trying to give a whole troop of archers scrye shot is silly to me.

 

I actually have more trouble with the game having so many healing options like the Hospitaliers, a half a dozen clerics with healer, the pain cage, Warcry etcetera where you can't kill you opponent. Granted I use all of those things but only because if you don't you are doomed if you opponent does. But that is another thread.

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If a Model w/ Scrye Shot & Blazer makes only a single shot, that needed for targetting an Indirect Volley, that is their first shot, AND their last shot.

 

You are not required to make every attack allowed by #RA.

 

people are apparently ignoring what you said Qwyk . . . so here it is again.

 

Yes, Scrye shot can only be used on the last attack. Yes, a model cannot split its attacks when volleying. However, if a model just uses one attack and participates in the volley then it is the last attack. Couple that with the blazer ability and the indirect volley can go anywhere the model with scryshot & blazer wants (within range of course).

 

sure it's a bit hokey, will it make some poeple angry, yes. angry enough to quit the game, i hope not.

 

but as josh wrote there are a lot more ways to heal a model in warlord and prevent them from dying than in most games (and he left out the crypt legion with dark energy and the ability to convert mage spells into AOE healing spells).

 

honestly, i don't see this a a big game turner. to get the big pie-plate you have to use marksman and then your enemy isn't going to be just standing behind cover when it doesn't work. bring your high dv warriors (and a lot of them have deflect) and run across the field and smack the elves down.

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Well, we're getting ready to see how our Warlord models play using the Ares rules, but I like some aspects of Warlord, and would like to see our group go all Freelance; no army abilities. Anyway, I'm not about to start another thread about it. The SA's are just part of the game.

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Yes, Scrye shot can only be used on the last attack. Yes, a model cannot split its attacks when volleying. However, if a model just uses one attack and participates in the volley then it is the last attack. Couple that with the blazer ability and the indirect volley can go anywhere the model with scryshot & blazer wants (within range of course).

 

I will still have to disagree. But instead of a longer debate I'll wait for something official from Reaper. In the mean time all I can say is "thank god for house rules".

 

If it turns out I'm wrong it's no big deal my Giant Scorpion loves the taste of Elf.

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..snip...

 

If it turns out I'm wrong it's no big deal my Giant Scorpion loves the taste of Elf.

Here here!!

Did everyone already forget that there ARE counters to Scrye Shot also?

 

The wonderful thing about warlord is that it's a game of Paper, Rock, Scissors. You want to shoot with 900pts of Scissor, thats fine, my 150pt rock will burrow to you and crush you.

 

I've thought through it. I've seen it played. I've played against it. I plan to be on the giving end of it. What it boils down to is this is not a game breaking mechanic. It just adds another option to a very limited faction.

 

 

 

 

This rule is in desperate need of clearification. All sides have valid arguments and all arguments are base on interpretation(or misinterpretation :P) of the rules.

 

Please EE, this rule is going to be a thorn in everyone's side until it is resolved.

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Please EE, this rule is going to be a thorn in everyone's side until it is resolved.

 

Stop making more work for me and just agree with what I say. ::P:

I've passed it on.

 

Again, I still think in the original post by rcrosby, Option 3 is the correct choice. I went into more detail on the where and they whys of it a couple posts later. We'll just have to wait to see if Emmel chimes in.

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If a Model w/ Scrye Shot & Blazer makes only a single shot, that needed for targetting an Indirect Volley, that is their first shot, AND their last shot.

 

You are not required to make every attack allowed by #RA.

 

people are apparently ignoring what you said Qwyk . . . so here it is again.

 

Yes, Scrye shot can only be used on the last attack. Yes, a model cannot split its attacks when volleying. However, if a model just uses one attack and participates in the volley then it is the last attack. Couple that with the blazer ability and the indirect volley can go anywhere the model with scryshot & blazer wants (within range of course).

 

sure it's a bit hokey, will it make some poeple angry, yes. angry enough to quit the game, i hope not.

 

but as josh wrote there are a lot more ways to heal a model in warlord and prevent them from dying than in most games (and he left out the crypt legion with dark energy and the ability to convert mage spells into AOE healing spells).

 

honestly, i don't see this a a big game turner. to get the big pie-plate you have to use marksman and then your enemy isn't going to be just standing behind cover when it doesn't work. bring your high dv warriors (and a lot of them have deflect) and run across the field and smack the elves down.

 

I guess you could say it's wording or interpretation. "A model with multiple attacks that partisipates in a volley can not divide its number of attacks between the Volley and other forms of ranged attacks; all of its attacks are used during the volley."

 

To me that reads all attacks, if you have three attacks you can't say "Well, I'm gonna Volley with just this one."

 

Beyond that no one else in a troop SHOULD benifit from the abilities of Scrye shot. Until the rule is clarified. I wouldn't mind letting an opponent use his Scrye shot in the volley. But if the target's location countered each model's particular abilities ie the rest of the archers would have to use the normal rules for obstructions. I wouldn't let them the Scrye ability it until Reaper said different.

 

If my Mage is behind a large wall, she is open game for the Scrye shot but there is no way those other arrows are being counted as coming through the wall.

 

Something else, since volley is a combined ranged attack none or the other models could use their Marksman or Critical shot if Scrye is being used in the same action phase.

 

There seems to be a lot of rules that wouldn't allow it.

 

But, hey I got elf Archers, the Warlord and the Bowsister and lots of shieldmaidens, cheap clerics and trolls. If everyone wants to exploit this rule. I'm game.

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If a Model w/ Scrye Shot & Blazer makes only a single shot, that needed for targetting an Indirect Volley, that is their first shot, AND their last shot.

 

You are not required to make every attack allowed by #RA.

 

people are apparently ignoring what you said Qwyk . . . so here it is again.

 

Yes, Scrye shot can only be used on the last attack. Yes, a model cannot split its attacks when volleying. However, if a model just uses one attack and participates in the volley then it is the last attack. Couple that with the blazer ability and the indirect volley can go anywhere the model with scryshot & blazer wants (within range of course).

 

sure it's a bit hokey, will it make some poeple angry, yes. angry enough to quit the game, i hope not.

 

but as josh wrote there are a lot more ways to heal a model in warlord and prevent them from dying than in most games (and he left out the crypt legion with dark energy and the ability to convert mage spells into AOE healing spells).

 

honestly, i don't see this a a big game turner. to get the big pie-plate you have to use marksman and then your enemy isn't going to be just standing behind cover when it doesn't work. bring your high dv warriors (and a lot of them have deflect) and run across the field and smack the elves down.

 

I guess you could say it's wording or interpretation. "A model with multiple attacks that partisipates in a volley can not divide its number of attacks between the Volley and other forms of ranged attacks; all of its attacks are used during the volley."

 

To me that reads all attacks, if you have three attacks you can't say "Well, I'm gonna Volley with just this one."

 

Beyond that no one else in a troop would benifit from the abilities of Scrye shot, i would let an opponent use his Scrye shot in the volley but if the target's location countered each model's particular abilities. I wouldn't let them use it until Reaper said different.

 

If my Mage is behind a large wall, she is open game for the Scrye shot but there is no way those other arrows are being counted as coming through the wall.

 

Something else, since volley is a combined ranged attack none or the other models could use their Marksman or Critical shot if Scrye is being used in the same action phase.

 

There seems to be a lot of rules that wouldn't allow it.

 

But, hey I got elf Archers, the Warlord and the Bowsister and lots of shieldmaidens, cheap clerics and trolls. If everyone wants to exploit this rule. I'm game.

 

A model NEVER has to take all of it's attacks. It can CHOOSE to take one. This applies to all attacks of anytype. So if a model only uses ONE attack, that one attack is ALL of his attacks.

 

All actions are considered to happen at the same time during an action phase. If a model uses Marksmen, the arrows are considered to fire at the exact same time.

 

And I don't understand this, "Beyond that no one else in a troop would benifit from the abilities of Scrye shot, i would let an opponent use his Scrye shot in the volley but if the target's location countered each model's particular abilities. I wouldn't let them use it until Reaper said different."

It sounds like you think a model HAS to use scry shot, which is incorrect. You can move and still take all of your normal actions. Scry shot is just an option.

 

 

Scry shot works through magical intervention. Who is to say that a Master Archer can or cannot enchant every single last arrow fired with theirs to land in the Area that theirs does(be it through a wall, over a wall, or into a building)

 

 

 

Every aspect of this topic has been argued and discussed. It's been stretched across this topic, the Eawod top, and the elven tactics topic. I am sure that when an official response is reached we will all be told what it is. Let's just give a little time to play test everything so the best solution will be reached.

 

Until then, I agree with option 3 in the first post.

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I'm glad you guys are working out the kinks. I don't find it game breaking, just hokey. Again, I'll live with it. Reaper has shiny new models coming out every month. They've got at least four armies I love the models for. I'll play Warlord or whatever rules set my friend wants to throw down with.

 

I'm sure official clarification will be forthcoming from Reaper, but I think Qwyk and the Gang have a workable solution.

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