Jump to content

joshuaslater

Upcoming Generic Card Changes?

Recommended Posts

No one is suggestin' Reaper put the whole game on hold to do this. This can be a slow, gradual, process, not unlike the changes thus far. When the core is done, this will be gravy.

 

I hadn't even considered the idea of having some "monster" cards for special scenarios!! Now those would be useful, especially in tourney settings. A spider filled forest/underground nest where both armies have something wicked to contend with and an objective would make for a thrilling game in a tourney setting. Objectives are always more challenging in tourney settings besides, kill all the models on the table. If the monsters have stats from Reaper's rubric, they can be put into the scoring properly.

 

No one reasonably expects Reaper to release their rubric for anyone to use.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm going to try and summerize why I think generic cards are borderline impossible with the coming revision. Then I'm going to follow up with a summary as to why the generic cards are no longer needed. Lastly I'll state why the formula for the current stats should NEVER be released.

 

Why The Generic Cards Are Now Impossible:

In warlord 1.0 to 1.2 all grunts and half the adepts were almost exactly the same. One DT All models degraded exactly the same. To make a model different you adjusted a few DV and MAV values, and added some SAs. Simple creation for models.

 

Now, there will need to be Base Templates for every faction's grunt and leaders, every races 3 grades of 3 elite(hero, mage, and cleric). So we start with would have to have almost 100 BASE templates to cover everything from how demons degrade compared to how elves degrade compared to how skeletal pirates degrade.

So now that we have 20 pages of blank state cards lets get ready for our generic model.

 

Adjust the stats and prepare for calculations that are dependant on synergy. This means that nothing increases in value at a normal linear rate. Everything should be priced exponintially.

3 attacks and MAV 5 may cost 15 points, but the true value of these abilities is also dependant on the models staying power(DV).

Now lets get into SAs. None can have a flat cost. The cost of warmaster is going to depend on MAV, #MA, DV, Base Size, and other SAs. Unless you take ALL of these things into consideration, there is NO way to come close to the value of the ability.

Then all of the above calculations have to be repeated for each damage track and then some how modified depending on how many DTs the new model has.

So if you want to do it I hope you have calculators handy and know a bit of algebra.

 

Yes, I am thinking this is the most BASIC way for you to generate a model.

 

 

Why Generic Cards Are No Longer Needed:

When the original Generic Cards were released, we have about 30 grunts that were very similar and about 120 figures for the entire line. We also had no official proxy rules.

 

Currently we have:

  • A figure line that is fast approaching 400 models.
  • 400 figures that ALL have very unique stat lines and very unique abilities; all of this in totally different kinds of combinations.
  • Official Proxy rules that allow for official use of a few thousand models from all of Reaper's miniature lines.

I am very curious as to what everyone is creating that they can't find a single stat line close to it with almost 400 to choose from?

 

Don't forget that even with the generic cards the model would be completely unofficial. It is just as unofficial as grabbing the beefiest model you have and giving him the abilities to make him a dragon. Grab your stats for the 500 pointer and toss him a flight speed, and a blow through ranged attack. As a GM run event, I would be happy to run this model while two armies are duking it out.

 

 

Why The Forumla Should Never Be Released

First it would confuse the crap out of your average player. I would even venture to say it could scare off new players by putting something like that into a rulebook or update.

 

I am also sure that there is plenty more that goes into a stat calculation than mathematics. There are reasons these games are play tested, and it's to catch combinations that grant a huge synergy bonus without being properly pointed.

 

Having such a thing in the customers hands would always result in Reaper being forced to Justify their models cost whenever it did not match up with the Formulas they gave out. I have actually did this with the old generic cards, and it's kind of silly to expect that kind of service.

 

The weakest reason I have is that it removes alot of the magic from the game when we the players have the very core of how the game works. It turns my skeleton into a formula and my game into a homework assignment.

 

 

 

 

So take my opinion with a Grain of Salt. Let's stop worrying about sweet calculations and building the perfect model we want in our army or for our event.

If you're going to proxy the model, you might as well proxy the stats.

 

I don't have time to proof read this, so I hope it's understandable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now that is a cogent and convincing argument. With the new cards and changes, you're probably right. As we've yet to see them on the street, it's all been conjecture. Now there will probably be a model (maybe from some other faction) that meets the criteria for bustin' out a DHL model one likes to make something FUN and unique.

 

Now that the cards are getting overhauled, and are more complex, they probably have more involved in making the generic cards we've already had. It sounds like a monumental task coming up with generics as we've known them now.

 

Again--No games company putting out models for sale has ever released its rubric. 'Don't expect Reaper to break that pattern, and no one was expecting it. I like the idea of them putting out an odd card now and again for some cool DHL models for scenarios, or just for FUN.

 

A "Monster Manual" for beasties would be a great boon to all of us. Maybe they could throw us a bone now and again in one of the Krieger's Journals that will be coming out. Back in the day, when White Dwarf was a gaming magazine for D&D, Warhammer, Call of Cthulu, etc., they had the "Fiend Factory" where they would introduce stats for new monsters for the D&D game to go along with mini modules in the magazine. This is something I could see Reaper doing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you can distill the basic desire for "generic cards" down to this:

 

What most of us really want is some cards for some specific monster types that aren't already existing within the current Warlord system, the first and foremost being Dragons, and the "need" for these is primarily for scenario design, particularly for multi-player GM vs everyone scenarios.

 

My old game group used to do a lot of this with WFB, WH40K, Necromunda and Mordheim as a nice break from just the straight 1 on 1 or 2 on 2 battles we played. The Warlord system is, IMHO, a much better game system for exactly these kind of scenarios, which is why I'm drawn to it. In the GW systems, creating your own generic stats and balancing them against other forces is relatiively easy because there really isn't a lot of variation between the model types. A lot of times you can create a GW stat line on the fly and have it be relatively balanced. Warlords greatest strength - it's flexability combined with the SA's that make truly unique models - turns into a great weakness in this area, as you have to do some testing to create a balanced, yet unique critter.

 

Anyway, we could probably reduce some of the arguing by simply retitling the thread "Warlord Stat cards I'd like to see" and have people ask for specific stat cards - then Reaper could focus on the stat cards for the "generic" figures most people really want.

 

For me, personally, it would be mostly the type of monsters/figures I would most use in a scenario scene:

 

Townsfolk/Civilians - real basic, probably single DT data card

Townguard - a little buffer than Townsfolk

Dragons/Wyverns - about 6-12 different stat cards for different sizes/ages

some different Mount type creatures that aren't already statted in WL - Unicorns, Pegasus, Elephants

maybe a few "standard" animals - Bears, Lions, Tigers, etc.

 

That's basically it for me. At some point, if Reaper doesn't do so, I'll probably stat out some of these for myself, as I'm sure others will do. My only reason for wanting Reaper to do the data cards would be that it would be easier for me to pick balanced critters, and the knowledge that data card I use for a dragon in my multi-player con scenario is the same or relatively close to what Bob, Dick and Harry use in their scenarios around the country.

 

Edit: PS - and I would be fine with Reaper putting one or two of these generic critters in each Journal. That way they don't tie up a lot of resources, and we get new crunchy bits on a regular basis.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As a new player of Warlord I would be greatly excited to see the generic cards make some sort of return. I have tons of the DHL figures that are just begging to be used in a game. One would think that being able to build your own army out of generic cards would be something that would go great for groups of friends playing in their own campaigns.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great discussion! [teasing mode on] Now we've articulated what we want, why we want it, how we'd use it, how it could work. We've also been told it won't happen, why it can't happen, how impossible it is, why Reaper should never attempt it because it would bring their whole system and production schedule to their knees....but not by Reaper, in an official sense. [/teasing]

 

I'm kidding, folks, just kidding. Honestly, shakhak, if I had smileys handy for "Dude, you rock" and "I'm not worthy", you'd be seeing them here. I appreciate your direct approach for boiling it all down and coming up with solid, rational answers. Good enough for me, at least until Reaper makes official announcements or we get a good look at the next round of updates.

 

@kristof65 and @joshuaslater -- I like the way you guys are thinking. A 'Monster Manual' or something like it, even piecemeal in RC, KJ, Casketworks, online, would be cool. I had thought of dragons, unicorns and others outside WL, but townsfolk, guardsmen and 'not quite warriors' never even crossed my mind. Good stuff.

 

In the category of Totally Wishful Thinking for the Year 2024...maybe someday some uber-DBA can XML the daylights out of the whole system, pulling into a big database the Fantasy Figure Finder, Asylum Online Store, ReaperGames and wherever else stock numbers and names reside. Mash it all together and stick a web-front end query on it so users type in a stock number, hit GO and out pops a data card and the ability to add the figure to a shopping cart, if it's still in production. Wouldn't that be great? Hey, it could happen. *psh-yeah*, right, and monkeys might fly...

 

Me <retreating to wait and see what actually shakes out after all the speculation>

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@GreyHorde

Thanks for the compliments and for poking fun at me :) It's rare I get called out on my wild speculation :D

 

 

My personal opinion is if Reaper can make a statline for it, they can put it in a blister with a hunk of pewter. I understand where everyone is coming from and you're all right. Hell I've wanted real stats for a Dragon since the first edition... but when I get the official stats for it, I want a mini and I want it to reeeeaaaally be official. Put it in an army, and lets see the thing crack skulls during tournaments.

 

My biggest fear is flat out half assedness. Not to say Reaper has dissapointed me in the past, but there is a first for everything. If they ever do release RPG stats, or stats for models never planned for Warlord production... be them lowly peasants, or legendary pegasus riders... I want them pointed fairly and elligible for tournament play. Otherwise, to me, it is a wasted effert.

 

Of course those last two paragraphs are pure opinion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe that almost every angle of every point has been made, it's up to Reaper now. All I have left to say is I hope at least in the KJ's that they will put in some generic stats for DHL monsters not covered in the WL system if not a whole generic system otherwise I will be buying very few if any DHL monsters and my ability to quickly put a little extra twists in games from time to time will be severely handicapped.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Anyway, we could probably reduce some of the arguing by simply retitling the thread "Warlord Stat cards I'd like to see" and have people ask for specific stat cards - then Reaper could focus on the stat cards for the "generic" figures most people really want.

I still don't understand why Reaper has to do this. If they aren't going to be official cards, then there is no reason why someone else couldn't do them - perhaps as a community effort. The community at large can playtest as much if not more than Reaper ever could by themselves.

 

Rich

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Shadowhunter finished the topic nicely in post #69. I started this thread to get some debate going over this, and found everyone, insightful, intelligent and courteous.

 

@rcrosby--I think it's more a case of "what we'd like to see more of from Reaper, within reasonable expectations," rather than "why Reaper has to do this". They've got a lot on their plate, obviously, but with all the data card changes, you can't expect questions about generic cards not to arise.

 

Reaper's followed this debate, even cooling us down when we got too rambunctious, so we've got their attention and maybe we'll see something of this. As ever, the game's moving forward.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I didn't see anything mentioned on the subject, so I thought I might interject. I remember seeing D20 stats for some of the DHL line occasionally appearing in Casket Works, under the Open Game License. As a suggestion to Reaper, perhaps they could start printing some unofficial data cards for some of their upcoming DHL monsters and characters in that format. Not legal in any tournaments, but something new for creative people to use in their games.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×