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#1 Reaperbryan

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Posted 27 April 2007 - 10:03 AM

Discuss factions, builds, and how to crush your foes mightily in this thread!

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#2 Qwyksilver

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Posted 27 April 2007 - 11:11 AM

Just making sure the recent conversation regarding Mercy and alternative Faction abilities remains in our Faction thread.

Sir Broderick got another damage track, warmaster and a raised DV. Yay! I'm happy again, even if I won't be converting as much with the new rules.



Converting !! :blink: <_< Who'd bother under the new format ? Who else feels our SA has been nerfed ? Despite all the changes this is the one thing I hate the most that the chances are so slim , why bother having a faction SA ? OK , I'm a dyed in the wool Crusader lover but this ..... <_< Oh , well doesn't mean I won't stop playing them and I've got 7 other factions to use as well , just a little disappointed . :rolleyes:



I'm not a huge fan of Convert as it was in Open Beta myself, but that does not mean this is it. This does not also mean we won't get something else when the SA are all reviewed and reworked that makes up for the change. Let's wait and see. It's 3 months.

Let's just remember that when the Faction SA are all going to be reviewed. When the Journel comes out around GenCon-ish (as Emmel indicated), maybe we will see something different, since there will be even more time for us to use this, offer suggestions, test those suggestions, etc. The fact is that the previous incarnation of Mercy was Horribly out of balance. Forcing checks on a Model's last track AND healing them back to full was too much, especially with the new multi track grunts. Something needed to be changed. Is this perfect, maybe not, but that does not also mean that it is permanent.

Mercy/Conversion is now on it's 3rd incarnation because people asked for changes. That does not mean a 4th version will never happen.

Also remember that the old versions were also in large part due to huge point discrepancies in Crusader Models vs fairly equivalent other Factions, which used to always leave us at a significant model disadvantage. Mercy used to help deal with that. Now, this is not so much an issue. I've actually during Beta testing had Initiative and Model count superiority, which was virutally impossible for us before. Most of the time, we're at a fairly even match, so Mercy did need to be changed some.

Let's give this all some time and see how it works out.

If anything needs to be changed, IMNSHO, it is the Armor of Faith Faction ability for the Army of Judgement. DV 8.... meh.

Only Halbarad and Valandil have a DV lower than 8 on their last track, and there are only 2 other models, Ironraven and Ironspines that have of DV 8 on their last track.



I've been contemplating a troop of Herne and some War Dogs, that just goes around and Converts stuff. If Isarah had Healer, I'd use her.

PS



As it stands now, I dislike Convert intensely in that only leader models can do it and it's no longer an opposed roll. And likely won't work as often as one might like (unlike alot of other faction SA'a, like Fear of Undeath, Hunter's Edge, Bane, etc). Even Healing Graces is a crapshoot now (Hospitalier: "Whee! I just healed an enemy model! Welcome back to the land of the living my new brother! Wanna fight for us? No? Hrrrm... *hackity-hackity* Hospitalier: "Ack! I am perished! My DV9 could not save me from my own dumb! I should've just been used to heal up friendly models..." *expires*).

Now granted, I'm VERY used to not really having much by way of faction abilities to use (it's hilarious, even when I didn't play against Lord Baasen, somehow I usually got put across the table from a Necropolis player...), but on the rare occasion that I did, Mercy as it stood sometimes left a bad taste in my cake-hole. And the Justice sublist was underdeveloped to say the least. But yeah, Mercy/Conversion, with it being the enormous crapshoot it is? I no likey. Right there with you, Brushmaster.

But Qwyk's right, this isn't "the end" of the Mercy/Conversion line. Krueger's Journal will hopefully clear this up. And hopefully make the Justice sublist more appealing.

So, I propose that instead of being all "whine/moan" aboot it, we brainstorm here. I said in another thread that I just wish Mercy/Conversion would go away entirely and that the Crusaders be potrayed more like they are in the book. That is: defenders of teh people/smiters of teh eeeevil. I'm still of that opionion. But it's altered slightly. I think Mercy/Conversion/Healing Graces are nerfed enough and would be a fine function of the Devoted of Gianova. And ONLY the Devoted.

I'm of the opinion that the Crusader's main, "big" faction ability should have something to do with bravery or inspiration or whatever else in defense of the people of Taltos.

Thoughts?



Crusaders are THE cleric army. Sure, Nerfherders have their big bad Sky Lord, but we have those dirty beribboned Dead in the sheer number of potent Clerics.

Our Faction Abilities should be tied into them. And personally, I like the idea of less true abilities, and maybe more specific equipment and spells as our "Faction Ability"

We need more Crusader specific and Defensive spells.
Shield of Faith, boosts MD in a 3" AOE, which can be cast defensively

In a Crusader Army, Cure spells can be Cast Defensively, provided the Cleric is within 6 inches of the target of a Damage causing spell, or within 6 inches of the center of the AOE of a damage causing spell. I would love to see something like this. It's a nice Clerical Counter to those crazy Mages.

SA: Healer can be used Defensively by a Crusader if a Friendly Model they are currently in b2b contact with takes a point of damage from a Defensive Strike. Similar in to Do Your Duty, but instead of passing the damage to a bondslave, the Cleric heals it. Healer still cannot be used on yourself, so this also means you are likely risking that Healer model to being a target of Defensive Strikes.

Judgement continues to auto-coup Evil models, and this overcomes Dark Energy. Something has to.

Crusader Standards not only allow you to reroll a failed Discipline check, they grant +1 to Dis as well. The Crusaders March with a purpose which will not be thwarted by man nor beast.

Heal the Masses: Cure spells can be cast with a 2" AOE, effecting any Friendly Model in the AOE. Cure spells cast in this manner are treated as one Grade higher, and cost an additional 20 points.

My Dying Breath: With their dying breath, a Stunned Leader or Elite can drag themself up and seek to slay those responsible for their death. By sacrificing their Tough check and dying, a Crusader Leader or Elite can make a SINGLE melee attack at their last Damage Track, all appropriate modifiers included. This attack will trigger Defensive Strikes.

I am your shield: A Crusader Leader or Elite in b2b contact with a Friendly Model that is the target of Ranged attacks can opt to take the attacks themself. The Crusader must declare that he is Shielding his comrade Before any attack rolls are made. The Crusader must take all the Ranged attacks targetting the original target, and is unable to gain the benefits of SA: Deflect for ANY Ranged attacks made at them until the end of the current Activation. (i.e. If the Leader was also the target of Ranged attacks, they cannot use Deflect against those as well).



To Kelcore: I agree that the main faction ability should have to do with Gerard's mission. Someting fluff based that goes with all the stories about the refugees gathering around Denelspire. I understand why they had to change the Mercy rules. If I was playing another faction I wouldn't want to see my Warlord flub a discipline roll and sign up for the Crusaders. So what if we take the old rules with the contested roll and apply them only to Adepts/Grunts? It fits with the growing masses and keeps the Darkspawn players happy by not allowing Gerard and a couple doggies to recruit Rauthuros. ::D:

To Qwyk: Bunch of great ideas, keep it up!



I was thinking of a new Faction Ability - "Divine Presence" ( we've already got Sokar is Near) , all clerics gain a +1 to casting for a purely Crusader faction .
What do you think?
Fluff wise - the faithful servants of Aurelus are bestowed with his presence for the duration of the battle , enhancing their clerical abilities . Ok , its better than other clerics but its not the +2 that everyone used to get for friendly targets and they don't suffer as much when facing Nekfsokar .

This would be one example that I'd like to see implimented . :ph34r:



I'm back, after further thinking.

Forward to Victory:
The banners of the Crusader have always been a rally point for the Knights Templar. So long as the pennons fly, they have never wavered in the face of fear. If a Crusader is able to maintain LOS to their troop standard, they automatically succeed on any Discipline checks to make base to base contact with an Enemy Model. LOS is determined using Eye Level measurement from the Crusader's head, to the physical representation of the Standard itself. If the Standard Bearer has been stunned or killed, no Model may have LOS to the Standard until another Crusader has taken up the Standard.

Man's best friend:
A Crusader Leader has the option of adding a single Wardog to his Troop at standard cost. This Wardog does not count towards the Leader's troop size, and does not count towards the number of troops allowed for a given Adept Model. A Warlord may choose to field Garr instead of a Wardog, however Garr remains Unique and cannot be fielded elsewhere in the Army.

Leader of the Pack:
In an Ivy Crown Sublist, Garr becomes a Unique Sergeant with troop size 3-6/0. All Soldiers in this troop must be Wardogs.


Sacrificing minions: is there any problem it CAN'T solve?

- Lord Xykon, OotS #192

Beowulf ll. 1538-1543
... Pay no heed to proud thoughts, famous champion. Now the flowering of your strength is but for a while. After a while, the time will suddenly come that disease or the sword's edge will cut off your power. Either fire's grasp or flood's surge or blade's bite or spear's flight. Or vicious age, or the flash of your eyes will gutter and burn out! It will be all at once, great campaigner, that death will overpower you.

 

It's terrifying!  Without enough caffeine your body undergoes these hours of partial paralysis and hallucinations! :shudder:

- Argentee


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#3 Arbiter10

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Posted 27 April 2007 - 01:35 PM

Really great ideas, as usual, Qwyk. I particularly like the last two that deal with the war dogs.

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#4 spiritual_exorcist

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Posted 27 April 2007 - 04:01 PM

Even something as simple as Crusaders retaining the (now defunct) +2 CP vs. friendly models when casting 'Cure' cleric spells would be a welcome replacement faction ability in my books (Call it 'Blessings of the Three' or something). I've never cared for mercy, despite it being fairly potent, it has always been in my top 2 least favorite faction abilities.

The Army of Justice appears fairly buggered as well
What's happening to the Judgement special ability seeing as how it wasn't re-printed in the Chronicles one can assume it no longer applies, essentially it is Smite(evil)/1 plus auto-coup...for the time being I'm willing to accept just the +1MAV aspect as a replacement without the 'Bane' component until we see a re-write of 'Judgement', but certainly the loss of Judgement as a special ability shouldn't mean the Army of Justice loses it's most potent Faction Ability.

Armor of the Faithful comes up virtually useless as a faction ability as well, I'd expect to see the minimum DV boosted or this ability be replaced with something else, as it stands only Halbarad and Valandil benefit from this ability.

Looks like we'll have to wait until July/August to find out...although one might hope we will see beta versions of the updated faction abilities before then.
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#5 Qwyksilver

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Posted 27 April 2007 - 04:06 PM

Faction Abilities, unless otherwise posted in the pdf, remain unchanged. So Judgement hasn't been changed or removed until we see it altered in the Kruger's Journal this summer.

Special abilities, equipment, spells and Models changed in this round.

Sacrificing minions: is there any problem it CAN'T solve?

- Lord Xykon, OotS #192

Beowulf ll. 1538-1543
... Pay no heed to proud thoughts, famous champion. Now the flowering of your strength is but for a while. After a while, the time will suddenly come that disease or the sword's edge will cut off your power. Either fire's grasp or flood's surge or blade's bite or spear's flight. Or vicious age, or the flash of your eyes will gutter and burn out! It will be all at once, great campaigner, that death will overpower you.

 

It's terrifying!  Without enough caffeine your body undergoes these hours of partial paralysis and hallucinations! :shudder:

- Argentee


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#6 spiritual_exorcist

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Posted 27 April 2007 - 05:58 PM

Judgement is a special ability, not a faction ability, it's lack of appearance in the list of special abilities means, strictly speaking it can no longer be used correct?

Or does that condition merely apply to equipment, and spells not printed in the Chronicle?
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#7 Brushmaster

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Posted 28 April 2007 - 07:39 AM

Man's best friend:
A Crusader Leader has the option of adding a single Wardog to his Troop at standard cost. This Wardog does not count towards the Leader's troop size, and does not count towards the number of troops allowed for a given Adept Model. A Warlord may choose to field Garr instead of a Wardog, however Garr remains Unique and cannot be fielded elsewhere in the Army.

This I'd love to see as it follows the fluff about Garr .
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#8 headache62

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Posted 30 April 2007 - 12:07 PM

Judgement is a special ability, not a faction ability, it's lack of appearance in the list of special abilities means, strictly speaking it can no longer be used correct?

Or does that condition merely apply to equipment, and spells not printed in the Chronicle?


It's a SA granted to certain models by an Faction Ability - I personally argue that it stands as is, IMHO. And it makes up for the deficit of Armor of the Faithful.

#9 CrusaderChris

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Posted 03 May 2007 - 05:38 PM

So I just wanted to share that I finally played my first game of Warlord. I bought the rulebook right before the changes and held off on dragging my friends into it until the new rules were semi-finalized. 1000 point battle with the new rules and man am I sold on cavalry. The Lion's Lancers rock! Thanks to a great group of people on this board who provided help, insight, and funny comments to us noobs. It's much appreciated. ::D: It's really refreshing to have a forum as open and helpful as this, Reaper peeps included! Thanks guys!

#10 bobapple

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Posted 04 May 2007 - 07:23 AM

... man am I sold on cavalry. The Lion's Lancers rock!


Agreed. They are awesome on the charge, have a high DV and a high enough Discipline they can easily break away from combat. I plan on picking up a few more.

#11 Storminator

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Posted 04 May 2007 - 08:56 AM

Lion Lancers...

Bane of my Overlord existance... :angry:

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Rolling bad is NOT a counter-strategy for rolling good!

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#12 Qwyksilver

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Posted 04 May 2007 - 10:23 AM

Lion Lancers...

Bane of my Overlord existance... :angry:

PS


Hey, at least they took Smite Evil/2 away from them. They could have been worse. :lol:

Sacrificing minions: is there any problem it CAN'T solve?

- Lord Xykon, OotS #192

Beowulf ll. 1538-1543
... Pay no heed to proud thoughts, famous champion. Now the flowering of your strength is but for a while. After a while, the time will suddenly come that disease or the sword's edge will cut off your power. Either fire's grasp or flood's surge or blade's bite or spear's flight. Or vicious age, or the flash of your eyes will gutter and burn out! It will be all at once, great campaigner, that death will overpower you.

 

It's terrifying!  Without enough caffeine your body undergoes these hours of partial paralysis and hallucinations! :shudder:

- Argentee


Black Lightning: MA010.


#13 CrusaderChris

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Posted 04 May 2007 - 10:14 PM

Hey, at least they took Smite Evil/2 away from them. They could have been worse. :lol:


Yeah but Damon and Danel with Smite/1 were running with them. ::D:

#14 mjstarks

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Posted 05 May 2007 - 12:01 PM

Hey, at least they took Smite Evil/2 away from them. They could have been worse. :lol:


Yeah but Damon and Danel with Smite/1 were running with them. ::D:



The Crusader cavalry was the main part of my Darkspawn romping. Tough to handle the charge with smite auto-killing a couple fodder a turn.

#15 Lawgiver

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Posted 06 May 2007 - 08:51 PM

I've played them the last two weekends. In both games the new conversion rules were near useless. I succeeded only once in both games and found the restrictions to leaders only highly ineffective. They are typically your heavy hitters. The new rules requiring an Invoke prevent you from being able to move and attack with them in the same round. Furthermore, the opponent simply making a discipline check is too easy. They typically had a 50-60% chance of success.

The new Lion's Lancers were highly effective and are now much closer to par on points. Previously they died too quickly.

I have a profound respect for the Gaurdian Angel now. He will probably be in 75% of my army builds over 1500 pts now.

The Hound of Judgement's new non-corp. ability kept him alive twice where he was able to retreat and be healed before reengaging. However, his new DV is rather pathetic compared to before. He's much more fragile and every time he entered combat (3 times) he'd be knocked from full health to the last track by 2 Crimson Knights. Combo of the dice and new low DV. He's not "broken" but his former tactics will have to be changed a bit.

I love the new First Strike and Tough on Ironspines. It makes them twice as useful as the previous stats.

While cheaper, the Ivy Crown archers are still... um.... near useless. They lack the Critical Strike of most other archers. They now have to shoot most grunts/adepts 3-5 times to kill them and almost always need 9s or 10s. So while the points dropped you have to take twice as many to be effective which is equally as useless as they were before.

The Justicars are now must haves. They have replaced the Knights as the lackey's of choice. The 4 tracks makes them much harder to drop if they are fielded with clerics/hospitaliers. And their MAV is much better.

Saramonde might as well lay down and die if she gets into B2B with anyone and she's not on their rear side. I still took her both games for the Tactics card. She only came into play for the support bonus and attacks on sure win matches. Otherwise she is hit on 60-80% of incoming attacks and against any leader it's almost auto hits.

Halbarad's CP should be 8 in keeping with the old rules. He was one of the best clerics and now is mediocre.

Damon I was not as impressed with him as I once was. Granted he's still good, but I miss his Monster Slayer ability. :D:

Branor has maintained his position as my Captain of choice. He has solid DV, MAV and just enough clerical casting ability to keep people going. The healer ability is nice when needed.

Duke Gerard, bump his MAV up 1 and he'd be perfect. If he could take 12 grunts, it would be better too. He lost a bit of his honor guard of old.
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