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Elves vs Necropolis

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What do you think about these two 400 point armies? Do you think they will be fairly well balanced?

Elves: (396 points)

Prince Danithal (Fireball, Arcane Blast; magical weapon)

3 Death Seekers

1 Vale Archer

 

Necros (398 points)

Elsabeth Briarkiss (magical armor)

4 Crimson Knights

 

I could go with Judas for the Necros but that would cut the Knights down to 2, and that would give too much of an advantage to the elves (due to their numbers).

 

I would like to make the elves a little more ranged than the Necros, just to give the army a slightly different flavor. Also, it will be a more effective demo to show how to deal with magic and ranged. The archer won't dominate too much because the necros all have deflect (or Elsabeth's magic armor).

 

I think as long as the elf player uses his/her ranged powers effectively at the beginning of the battle, it will be pretty even. If not, then the elf will be hosed, and I'm not talking about his stockings. :blink:

 

Comments?

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For introductory demos, I like trying to keep the magic, special abilities and equipment to a minimum so I can focus on the mechanics of the game, and don't have to spend half the time explaining what this ability does or what's my new MAV because of this sword, etc. If it's designed for folks that have had a basic demo under their belt, then add in the magic, equipment, and models with lots of SA.

 

I like seeing a Sgt or inexpensive Cpt, some soldiers, and if possible a second troop to show off the initiative system.

 

You've sunk a lot of points into just two models for the demo - Danithal and Elsabeth. If you used some less powerful leader models, you could bring a few more soldiers or include a cheap solo.

 

Arcane blast with Danithal, is going to be a purely offensive spell since there are no enemy spell casters. Sure, it can cause 3 points of damage, but you'll need an 8+ to his Elsabeth, and it's only a 50/50 chance of hitting a knight on its first track, and the spell won't even be fatal. Your archer will be trying to hit DV 13 (12 + Deflect/1) with a RAV 5. So he is going to also need an 8+ to hit a knight, or a 9+ to hit Elsabeth. Even with Sure Shot (provided you are using Faction SA with these demos) those are pretty harsh odds, Marksmen will help a little by giving you an extra shot if you don't move, but the odds of hitting will still be as poor. The Elven ranged attack will be pretty ineffective against that Necro build unless they are unbelievably lucky. And once those Knights close, there will be dead elves littering the field rather quickly.

 

I'd personally consider at least swapping out the Vale Archers with Rangers so there's some chance of them surviving a bit in melee. Even if they don't survive, they will at least have a better chance of taking out a knight or two.

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Thanks for the advice Qwyk. I'm somewhat limited as to which models I can take (just because I don't have all of them), but I'll look around for cheaper leaders and see what I can come up with. I could possibly use a vale archer as a proxy for a ranger.

 

My idea for the elves' magic and ranged was to soften up and hopefully take out at least one knight (if not Elsie) before closing to melee. I thought that a Death Seeker might be almost a match to a Crimson Knight, so that if I could even the numbers before closing, the elves might have half a chance. Then, assuming the elf player can protect his archer, he could fire into melee to help with the knights.

 

Maybe that strategy is a little too complex for a first timer playing a 30 minute demo game...

Edited by Mclimbin

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Deathseekers can dish it out as hard as a Crimson Knight, but fold like wet paper towels with their DV being two lower and one DT less. If the player dog piles a Knight with all the Seekers, it will likely turn into a trade off of a Knight for a Seeker, provided you get to attack first. After that, 3 Crimson Knights vs 3 Death Seekers.

 

I'd put my money on the knights every time, unless the elf player has magic dice, and the knights use my dice.

 

If you have the models:

 

Railor - 38

Zombie x2 - 76

Skeletal Archer x3 - 90

 

Sir Azarphan - 69

Bloodseeker Vampire - 71

Wraith Harvester x2 - 58

 

Gives you 402 points and a pretty good sampling of basic concepts - mixing troop types, balancing lists, leaders w/ elites, attacking with ranged, attacking with magic, attacking with numbers, multiple cards in the init deck.

 

Demo forces don't have to be exact. A point or two differential isn't going to make a big difference in the grand scheme of things.

 

Swap out Sir Azarphan for Lord Kentaur and you would have a 399 point build, plus a Tactician card so you can really show off how Initiative works. Plus your captain won't look like he is auditioning for a broadway musical like Azarphan ^_^

 

You could easily drop one of the Skeletal archers to add some spells to railor if you wanted to include magic - Familiar, Draining Touch, Ice Shards = 30 points = Skeletal Archer.

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Qwyk,

 

I find it interesting that you talk up how good the knights are compared to the deathseekers, but then instead of trying to give a better elf to match up with the knights, instead you offer up a lesser Necro to go against the elves.

 

MC,

 

Remember that you can proxy anything you want, specially for testing and demoing purposes.

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Perhaps because I did not have the opportunity to work on some elven lists because my daughter woke up from her nap and I focused first on making a more balanced Necropolis force ...

 

So what exactly was your solution?

Edited by Qwyksilver

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Dude, I was just given ya a hard time...

 

I'd say go for Centaur Warriors, swordsmens, and displacer cats. Or even the Satyrs and displacer cats.

 

Those cats are awesome at negating the warmaster while the Satyrs or centaurs have the offensive capablities to take them down.

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I don't want to use any of the post RC models, since I don't have anything that could even feasibly proxy for them, and I don't want to do one of those OotS pre-battle rundowns, "The warriors are the cats, the archers are the satyrs and the bear is a centaur." :wacko:^_^

 

Should I soften up the Necros a little? I have lots of painted skelly swordsmen lying around...

Edited by Mclimbin

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What do you mean by post-RC?

 

Models included in RAGE Chronicles/ released since RC2007 came out?

 

 

If you include skellies it will help those Elves survival.

 

I'd consider dropping Danithal as well and using those points to give yourself more models, granted he is one of the cheapest Warlords, but with all the upgrades, that's 180 points you could use elsewhere.

 

One of the big difficulties you will find fielding a small force of Elves is that their ranged models are quite expensive, and they tend to be most effective when they can work in numbers to increase their odds. Their melee models are okay, but not really the strength of their army.

 

Arnise - 67

w/ Greater Magical Armor - 30

Deathseeker x3 - 156

 

Meridh - 30

Vale Archer x2 - 120

 

That's a 403 point build.

 

Stubb was right about Centaur Warriors being a good match up against the Crimson Knights. You either need some uber archers to punch through their armor initially, or some pretty durable melee models to stand toe to toe with them. Centaur Warriors are going to be one of your better bets, especially with their First Strike attacks.

Edited by Qwyksilver

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Ok, here are my two suggestions trying to stay within your pre-new models request...

 

Idea 1

Troop 1 (9, 398)

Prince Danithal (Stun, ice shards)

6x Swordsmen

2x Longthorns

-----------------------------------

1 troop, 9 models, 398 points, 2 cards, 1 spy

 

Idea 2

Troop 1 (8, 357)

Prince Danithal (Stun)

3x Swordsmen

4x longthorns

 

Troop Equipment: Battle Totem

---------------------------------------

1 troop, 8 models, 397 points, 2 cards, 1 spy

 

The tactics are the same either way, Use the Elves speed of 7 (9 charge)verses the knights 5 (7 charge) to make sure they attack first. Throw the stun out there for heck of it and see if you can catch a good roll or wo and put some knights to sleep. Use the support and reach bonuses to try and take out as many as you can in a single melee as you are going to take hits in return.

 

I think these lists would be competitive but not over balanced to either side as the elves lower DVs still leave it a very open match as to who would win. With the elves speed and ranger moves they should have the upper hand in terms of deciding when ad wherethe melee happens no matter what their actual roster list contains.

 

Course, I still think throwing in a displacer cat or two would be a lot more fun for the elves.

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One thing I would add for the OP is that I tailor my demos to my demoees. If they are RPG players who may not have played minis before, I go basic. If they are Warhammer, Confrontation or Warmachine players, I show them what we have and that includes SAs and spells and I usually give them more stuff to move around. SO make a few lists before the demos: 1 for N00bs and 1 for vets of other systems.

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Elves are a tough faction to demo, since they're one of the finesse armies. A good elf player can do very well, but anything less than a good player stands a serious chance of getting rolled.

 

How's this for an elf list:

 

--Selwyn, Vale Archer, 3x Vale Warriors

--Meridh, Ranger, Cat, Faun

394 points in all.

 

With Selwyn's troop you've got two accurate archers and a solid core of fighters to hold the line (well, solid enough for a 400 point army).

With Meridh's troop, you're showcasing some of the neat things about an elf faction, both artistically and tactically. The faun is a cheap fodder unit, good to tie somebody up or get you a cheap support bonus. Meridh can back up the vale warriors. The ranger can pick off weakened enemies, or help out in melee as needed. And finally, the cat provides a fast mover to harass enemy casters/archers, or just "be anywhere in the fight in a hurry," or stick its claws into somebody's face, or whatever else you might want a cat to do. You could also switch it out for a Royal Guardsman(elf) if you feel you don't need the mobility and want a high DV model.

 

For necropolis, I think it's important to have a mix of vampires and skeletons. For demo purposes you're trying to showcase what the factions are all about, and a pure vampire list doesn't really do that.

 

Besides, in a 1k or 1,500 force, all vampires requires some interesting tactical limitations on the part of the necropolis player, but in 400 you can do that without blinking an eye, so if your demo promises the budding necro player that they can do all-vampire armies and drink their way to victory, they may be surprised when they get to larger games.

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Thanks to everyone for their input so far.

 

Here is what I have come up with. What I'm going for is: gameplay balance, a variety of models, and a variety of attacks. Oh yeah, and fun! Oh and all of this is also constrained by which models I happen to have right now.

 

As much as I love the Crimson Knights, the consensus seems to be that putting them on the table will unbalance the game. That would be no fun for the Elf player, and would give a bad impression of the ruleset.

 

Elves 394 pts, 8 models

Troop 1:

Selwyn, Vale Captain (magic armor)

3 Elven Rangers (or should I go with Death Seekers?)

 

Troop 2:

Meridh, Vale Sergeant

3 Vale Swordsmen

 

_______________________________

 

Necropolis 394 pts, 10 models

Troop 1:

Lord Kentaur

4 Skeletal Warriore

Nivar, Wraith

 

Troop 2:

Railor (1 ice shards, 2 bolts)

3 Zombies

 

I'm a little worried that Nivar is going to pwn the table, he is easily the most powerful model in the battle.

 

If I decide to go with the rangers, maybe I should swap 2 rangers in troop 1 for 2 swordsmen in troop 2...

 

A buddy is coming over tomorrow, I'll get him to help me playtest these.

 

What do you think of these lists? ::D:

Edited by Mclimbin

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Your Rangers and Selwyn should soften Nivar up sufficiently before he becomes too much of a threat, and once he gets in close, just make sure you don't give up your back to him with Selwyn and you should be okay. His DV kind of stinks.

 

I'd worry a bit more about Kentaur with the DV 13 vs ranged attacks.

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I feel like a dork. I glanced at the thread title and read "Elvis vs Necropolis" and I'm thinking "Why would you have Elvis in a game? Does he have a rhinestone suit of armor?"

 

:blush:

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