Jump to content

Sign in to follow this  
spiritual_exorcist

Multiple Mages

Recommended Posts

Ok, so I'm looking at certain faction lists, and I can see the ability to carry 6-8 Spellcasters in a 1000 point build exists pretty easily for some of them. Is this sort of build something that can be used to really dominate the game? I'm hoping not, and doubt it is, given that many models have MD 11+ and in order to take many mages you are looking at CP 5-6 casters.

 

I haven't thought much about Clerics, but certainly they could be part of this as well. What I am looking for are builds that really push the limit in terms of carrying magic to the game. From what I can tell the Noghra, Overlords, and Necropolis might be best at doing this. So I'm thinking any build with 5+ Spellcasters in 1000 points would probably fit the bill as magic heavy. But can a build like that carry enough soldier models along side it to really be cost effective?

 

Would you carry a magic heavy build into a game and except to do well? If so what type of build would you bring to the board? Could such any army be really dominant or still remain balanced?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd be afraid to meet any enemy army with many damage tracks or with much shooting. Having many mages will make it difficult to shield them properly against shooting and at the same time even an exceptionally lucky level 2 mage will be hard pressed to cause more than 4 or 5 wounds per activation. So if you're up against an enemy that can absorb a lot of damage then you're in trouble I think.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

not sure if you'd clasify it as mage heavy, but it's as mage heavy as a reptus list will get at any point value. All three mages with greater familars CP10, 9, 8. Suported by 13 other ranged units (had gone for the all ranged army to see how it ran). It was against the BSG, so no shooting or magic till about the second turn. a little manovering to keep them out of the main force, kept them alive till the last two turn. Had i taken some warriors instead of all archers, i think the mages would have been a slaughter (and yes even with a counter or two on the other side). On the other hand, if i'd been versing the other end of the scale (small model number with high damage tracks) the mages would have lost easily. So like all things in the game, it's super effective against one army, yet putting somuch points into them will make it vunerable to another type.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll agree that you have to be careful, and that high mage count builds could be vulnerable, but the cost of many CP 5-6 Mages even with 2-3 spells isn't all that different from an archer model in many cases (50-60 points), so would it really be necessary for a Mage to cause more than 1-2 points of damage per turn to be cost effective?

 

All i'm trying to figure out, is whether taken in huge numbers Mages become a nasty presence, or if you get to a certain point where they become a liability? Truthfully it is probably the case that against certain builds and opponents they will dominate, while against others they'll dig you a deep hole.

 

Still, I've been fielding a cheap Mage in each of your 3-4 troops in a 1000 point game, in this case, fielded along side a couple archers and a few melee soldiers in each troop; and I've found it pretty advantageous to have the Mage along for the ride thus far. So (in the spirit of playtesting) I've been wondering if I push this even further will it break in one direction or the other. Honestly I doubt it will be a game breaker, but it is worth investigating. But I would continue to try ti put together a balanced force, not dropping too many soldier models at the expense of having 6-8 Mages (300-400 points worth including spells) on the board.

 

To be honest, I'm finding the little Mages more cost effective than the big ones. Relying on Innate(Bolt) + 2-3 other cheapo spells, and combining them with 2-3 archers in a troop seems pretty effective. I check to see if CP vs. MD or RAV vs. DV is the better shot, and that determines whether I fire off a spell first, and try to finish off a model with ranged attacks, or if I do the opposite, and I seem to be able to kill off or put a serious dent in a decent model each turn with each of my Mage/Archer pairings. So I'm wondering it 2 Mages +2-3 Archer might really be useful. Of course I realize that there are some basic tactics that could be employed to go after my Mages, but that is one of the nice things about having 4 troops with them on the board, and employing cheap Mages in the first place, they are a bit more expendable, and not quite a juicy a target.

 

If you were going to build a Mage heavy army, what would you use, and what would the build look like?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd take level 2 mages. Level 3 mages is a lot of points and it's a real disaster if one dies with unused spells or for some reason doesn't get to cast a spell during most activations (due to range, no LOS, counter spell etc).

 

My level 2 mages usually run at just shy of 100 points, since I load up on level 2 spells. My reasoning being that if my mage only gets 3-4 chances to cast spells during most games then they better be the most powerful stuff in the arsenal.

 

I do however see that cheap mages would work too from a cost perspective if you use him as a "magic archer".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok so here are some extreme examples of what I'm talking about:

 

1000 point Necropolis (default):

 

Troop 1: (263)

Lord Kentaur-66

+chilling aura-5

Malek-38

+Fireball x2-24

+Ice Shards-8

Skeleton Archers x2-50

Skeleton Warriors x4-72

 

Troop 2: (245)

Railor-37

+Ice Shards x2-16

Malek-38

+Fireball x2-24

+Ice Shards-8

Skeleton Archers x2-50

Skeleton Warriors x4-72

 

Troop 3: (245)

Railor-37

+Ice Shards x2-16

Malek-38

+Fireball x2-24

+Ice Shards-8

Skeleton Archers x2-50

Skeleton Warriors x4-72

 

Troop 4: (245)

Railor-37

+Ice Shards x2-16

Malek-38

+Fireball x2-24

+Ice Shards-8

Skeleton Archers x2-50

Skeleton Warriors x4-72

 

# points: 998/1000

# cards: 5

# models: 32

# Spellcasters: 7

 

 

1000 point Reven (Noghra):

 

Troops 1-7: (142 each)

Lunk-25

+Lightning Bolt-18

+Scare-5

Goblin Warriors x6-72

Goblin Skeeter x1-22

 

Army upgrade:

Luckstone-3

 

(I'm not sure Lightning Bolt is that great in the hands of a CP 5 caster, so I might consider swapping it out for Fireball and possibly upping the scare to a different spell or adding a second scare spell to each Lunk).

 

# points: 997/1000

# cards: 7

# models: 56

# Spellcasters: 7

 

 

 

1000 point Overlords (Default):

Troop 1: (388)

Andras-40

Kevis-36

+Fireball x2-24

+Ice Shards-8

Kevis-36

+Fireball-12

+Ice Shards x2-16

X-Bowmen x2-98

Spearmen x2-60

Warriors x2-58

 

Troop 2: (388)

Andras-40

Kevis-36

+Fireball x2-24

+Ice Shards-8

Kevis-36

+Fireball-12

+Ice Shards x2-16

X-Bowmen x2-98

Spearmen x2-60

Warriors x2-58

 

Troop 3: (222)

Talentia-35

+Fireball-12

+Ice Shards-8

X-Bowmen x1-49

Spearmen x2-60

Warriors x2-58

 

Army upgrade:

Luckstone-3

 

# points: 1000/1000

# cards: 3

# models: 24

# Spellcasters: 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually , I've been toying with a few lists with a Mage or Cleric leader plus a couple of soldier models , an archer or two and a supplementary Mage or Cleric . Haven't totally worked out the points but I think that combo may be a little more effective IMHO. :poke:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've just been the victim of cheap mages with scare spells. That worked really well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My thought is, to get the most bang for you buck with that many mages, you've got to take a broad selection of spells. Give yourself some of everything... direct damage ice spells, aoe in both fire and lightning, and some of the utility spells like scare and stun. Shouldn't be too difficult to have that kind of variety if you had as many mages as you're talking about. That way you have the big nuke spells for the high damage track opponents, and you've got a couple AOE's for when you face lots of goblins or skeletons. You have the stun for when you really must keep that one enemy troop from activating, and you've got Scare to help your own front line troops cope with a knot of enemy fighters.

 

I like the idea and I think it's a very smart use of mages. I doubt it'd be broken because mages have fairly flimsy stats. You can guard a mage with 4 grunts minimum, but you also need a whole other line of troops to screen their main line, otherwise your 4 body guards will get chopped up real quickly.

 

I think the only time clerics would be an effective counter to this strategy would be if your opponent took Crusaders with the AOE heal spells. Otherwise their clerics will be no more effective than they usually are.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My most effective Overlords list at 1500 points uses Ashkrypt, Arik Gix, and Balthon. all with greater familiars, and holy symbols. they are all in one group guarded by the Onyx Phalanx, then I have Vincent leading 2 or 3 x-bowmen and some slaves. Lastly I have a couple solos. Balthone heals and has a one or two offensive clerical spells, Ashkrypt, and Arik Gix have are all about lots of the big spells like chain lightning and lightning blast.

 

I lure the enemy into close formations and let loose with double lightning blasts. I can usually kill half a dozen models at a time that way, and what’s left can’t stand up to my fighters. On average I spend 638 points or so on those three casters. Not the biggest caster count but definitely a huge # of points.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
My thought is, to get the most bang for you buck with that many mages, you've got to take a broad selection of spells. Give yourself some of everything... direct damage ice spells, aoe in both fire and lightning, and some of the utility spells like scare and stun. Shouldn't be too difficult to have that kind of variety if you had as many mages as you're talking about. That way you have the big nuke spells for the high damage track opponents, and you've got a couple AOE's for when you face lots of goblins or skeletons. You have the stun for when you really must keep that one enemy troop from activating, and you've got Scare to help your own front line troops cope with a knot of enemy fighters.

 

Truthfully, I think the best way to get bang for your buck is to use a limited selection of cheap spells, keeping it very simple and using your Mages in a distinct role (as Magic archers) rather than trying to get fancy. If you start bringing expensive spells and hefty Mages you need to start putting a big investment into protecting your casters, which is costly. As it stand In builds like I presented above the casters are slightly expendable, losing one of them isn't much more harmful than losing an archer (especially if it has fired off 2 or 3 spells already.

 

I can get behinds Scare, as it is cheapo, but any spell over 10 points makes me cringe in the above situation. If I am going to start pounding points into hefty spells I want to ensure they are going to get cast, that means a decent caster and a familiar, which suck up the points (meaning instead of 5-8 casters I'd probably relegate magic to a much more limited role and just use 1-2 hefty spell chuckers (another valid tactic, but different than the one we are discussing).

 

Actually , I've been toying with a few lists with a Mage or Cleric leader plus a couple of soldier models , an archer or two and a supplementary Mage or Cleric . Haven't totally worked out the points but I think that combo may be a little more effective IMHO.

 

Come on Ross, do share, this is all about playtesting. Taking notes from my book eh ::P:

 

One thing I will say, is that there isn't any doubt about the effect of combined arms troops in RC08, they are fabulous. With the Clerics I think the only real valid offensive option for lower level clerics is Holy light. Sending a Cleric with 1-2 of those (Brannor for instance) up the field with your soldier models while your Ian or Valandil sit back with your archers and plunk away could work fairly well (especially against the Undead).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What about a cleric with Bless to camp near your archer/mage group? Bless increases all rolls, so it'd help everybody. He'd also be handy for his Heal ability if the enemy gets a defensive magic or defensive shot off at any of those models. Plus clerics, by and large, are built on the "fighter" base, so they wouldn't be terrible when the scrap gets up close and personal.

 

Dang I like Warlord. I need to play it more often.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, Bless should help out another casters CP check in future activations, that alone is a nice thing (In fact it would help out that same casters next CP check as well, which is pretty cool).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah. I really liked Bless "back in the day" and it only got better! It could also help in the casting of defensive magic. Huzzah for the super Bless!

 

Crusaders should get an Everything spell for clerics that combines for-enemies-only firestorm, bless, cure... like a Bright Holy Light or something. Now I'm very much off topic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×