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#1 G_S

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 12:29 PM

I was looking at something on some other message board where the great cheers had gone up that Reaper was making the P-65 line, and i noticed something. Aug 6 2007 was the first release of LE.
So a year later where does LE stand, short answer nowhere, it's dead in the water by the looks of anyone who doesn't come to the Reaper forums often.

Two new lines are underway with no real movement on this on.
In the 12 months that LE has been "out" they have had 17 (20 if you choose to count the 3 packs and i'll be nice and do so) releases, and these are the real run of the the minis i am refering to it's actual release life time. If you look at LE and what has happened in some of the other lines there is no confidence in LE from a buyer or from the looks Reaper.
Dark Heaven has had 105 releases, Warlord has had 84, army packs (since we have added the 3 packs to LE) brings it up to another 19 for 103.
Chronoscope a line 2 months old has had 15, and CAV 7.

If you discount the three packs of LE, Chronoscope has LE almost out done in two months (the SKU's are actually 16 as 50012 jack the ripper hasn't been released yet, but hey he's been previewed). Chronoscope has up to 50022 previewed, so it's getting at least 22 minis soon, and by it's about 7/month release so far, it will be out this month, or next month. There are 10 more LE previewed, for 27 but erleases about every 8 months so Chronoscope will likely better than that by early next month.

So with no movement compaired to really any other lines in a year, i am posting this is, to ask Reaper.
Is LE Dead? When are you pulling the plug? With no movement, by the look of things no support on your end, why the heck should we care?

#2 DjinnWing

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 02:38 PM

I also would like to hear from Reaper concerning LE. I really hope this line continues and really, really want that ETTIN!

#3 HansundFranz

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 08:56 PM

K, maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that we're comparing apples to oranges when we talk about Chronoscope vs. LE. Chronoscope is the same kind of product reaper has made for years. It appears they can make them a piece at a time, rather than having lots of expensive stock lying around. So, since they have to send to China for the LE, it seems like it can not be compared to miniatures that can be cast quickly in the US.....

#4 All-Terrain Monkey

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 10:24 PM

Mr's Pahmp yu ahp are right; Chronoscope is a pewter line made in Reaper's factory. LE is a line they have to work with China on. Of course Reaper's going to put out more metal models than plastic. They can make the metal to fit the orders/preorders/projected orders/etc in house while with the plastic they have to wait on molds, test models, test paint jobs, approvals, possible reworks, possible re-approvals (all with shipping samples back and forth across the Pacific), production batches, trans-Pacific shipping, and customs just to get it in house, followed by packaging, shipping, etc. I would think most intelligent consumers wouldn't look at the number of releases between DH, Warlord, and Chronoscope and have "No confidence" in LE. If LE was being touted as a game, then yeah, consumers would have to worry about "buying into" a line, or if Reaper had said they were going all-in with plastics and weren't doing any more metal. These are non-random plastic pre-paints though, why would consumers lose confidence in it? Unless this was just a sarcastic faux-troll and I missed the irony/sarcasm somewhere ::D:.

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#5 Shogun_Warrior

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Posted 07 August 2008 - 01:12 AM

while with the plastic they have to wait on molds, test models, test paint jobs, approvals, possible reworks, possible re-approvals (all with shipping samples back and forth across the Pacific), production batches, trans-Pacific shipping, and customs just to get it in house, followed by packaging, shipping, etc.

While all of that does make releasing things slower, that can in no way account for the fact that Reaper has only released a single batch of new LE minis in the past year. The only reason I can think of that there aren't at least quarterly releases is poor sales. However, I've heard that this line is selling pretty well, so I'm baffled why Reaper is only doing 1 batch per year...

#6 vejlin

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Posted 07 August 2008 - 01:38 AM

I very much doubt that Reaper is pulling the plug on LE. Last I heard on these forums the LE minis were outperforming Reaper's expectations* in sales for that line. Since I suspect that reaper would only have launched the line if the expectations were good enough to turn a profit then doing better than expected means reaper is certainly making money off this line.

My guess is that reaper is cautious and that's why the minis are being released so slowly. They don't want to make release promises that they then can't meet if a shipment is substandard and needs to be returned to the factory, and they also probably aren't willing to invest so heavily in the line that the risk bankruptsy if the line fails.

It has been said earlier I believe that reaper is slowly building up the LE line, and they've been doing just that. Last batch was released shortly after RCon in May. That's less than three months ago. Reaper has never given any indication that they'd be turning out batches faster than they currently are.

Reaper has been around for some time now while other companies have gone under. Probably because of cautious business practices. Aren't Rackham's current (or did they ride that one out already) financial torubles linked to making too big investments compared to income?

I agree that to really go and grab a huge market share fast you need to make huge investments and really start pumping out prepaints faster than reaper is. But it's not my impression that this was ever the intention. Reaper is doing it "the Reaper Way", and that has been shown to be a good approach in the past.

While I'd love seeing massive LE releases every month, my guess is that it would involve more money than Reaper is willing to risk on a new line.

*) Something about the Orc warrior selling out and needing restock from China for the 3rd time since launch
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#7 DjinnWing

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Posted 07 August 2008 - 07:14 AM

I'm well aware that LE is not so much an in house product as their metal offerings are. It's just that they have been quite mum about the 3rd wave (Ettin!, Gnolls, Gobos/Kobos, etc). They are probably just trying to figure everything out, but eventually I would like to see LE released every quarter.

#8 kristof65

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Posted 07 August 2008 - 10:00 AM

While all of that does make releasing things slower, that can in no way account for the fact that Reaper has only released a single batch of new LE minis in the past year. The only reason I can think of that there aren't at least quarterly releases is poor sales. However, I've heard that this line is selling pretty well, so I'm baffled why Reaper is only doing 1 batch per year...

IIRC, there was a statement made somewhere around here that the 3-packs weren't released initially because the first batch sold out so quickly, and that as a result, the second wave of minis got pushed back because of the need to have the first wave done again so they could release the three packs. Combine all of the various little factors (including ones we know nothing about), and things like this happen.

I'll admit that I am impatient with the speed of release of LE line as well. However, I would much rather that Reaper take it slow and steady, so that the line doesn't end up tanking because it over extended itself. Remember, they aren't blind format collectible miniatures that rely upon release after release to keep their momentum going.

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#9 Sergeant_Crunch

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Posted 07 August 2008 - 02:08 PM

I think the error in comparison is to that of the producers of the various collectible ranges who have the necessity of rapid release cycles to keep interest high among younger gamers and the revenue to be able to do so. My impression is that Reaper is going for the longer term gamer who makes consistent purchases over time.

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#10 Reaperbryan

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Posted 08 August 2008 - 07:55 AM

Mr's Pahmp yu ahp are right; Chronoscope is a pewter line made in Reaper's factory. LE is a line they have to work with China on. Of course Reaper's going to put out more metal models than plastic. They can make the metal to fit the orders/preorders/projected orders/etc in house while with the plastic they have to wait on molds, test models, test paint jobs, approvals, possible reworks, possible re-approvals (all with shipping samples back and forth across the Pacific), production batches, trans-Pacific shipping, and customs just to get it in house, followed by packaging, shipping, etc. I would think most intelligent consumers wouldn't look at the number of releases between DH, Warlord, and Chronoscope and have "No confidence" in LE. If LE was being touted as a game, then yeah, consumers would have to worry about "buying into" a line, or if Reaper had said they were going all-in with plastics and weren't doing any more metal. These are non-random plastic pre-paints though, why would consumers lose confidence in it? Unless this was just a sarcastic faux-troll and I missed the irony/sarcasm somewhere ::D:.

All-Terrain Monkey is correct.

This comes as no surprise, of course,but hey, somebody had to confirm it, and I've got the Sticker over there
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#11 DjinnWing

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Posted 08 August 2008 - 10:56 AM

All-Terrain Monkey is correct.

This comes as no surprise, of course,but hey, somebody had to confirm it, and I've got the Sticker over there
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Obviously, :;): , but can we get any word about future LE?

#12 G_S

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Posted 08 August 2008 - 11:47 AM

All-Terrain Monkey is correct.

This comes as no surprise, of course,but hey, somebody had to confirm it, and I've got the Sticker over there
<------------------

That’s a lovely bunch of reason that are just excuses, because unless you have shop gnomes you described what it takes to run a business. So it’s largely excuses as to why you can put out more metal than Plastic. You have to” wait on molds, test models, approvals, possible reworks, possible re-approvals” and “followed by packaging, shipping” That is something that has to be done for ANY product produced, that has to be done for All of the minis you put out be they plastic or metal, so again what’s the hold up?

Both of the Metal and Plastic have to have “orders/preorders/projected orders/etc” done or else how do they come up with the numbers they either make themselves or order from China? Or are you saying you Don’t do any of that for their Metals and they just appear out of now where? Both Metal and Plastic have to have molds, test models, approvals, possible reworks, possible re-approvals, or do magic fairies/shop gnomes make the Greens then at night instantly produce the molds, and cast them. Again no real difference, they all have to go through the same steps, as they are being produced. Other than the added step of Paint Approvals there is little substantive difference in brining a metal or plastic mini to creation, the design and approval process must exist for both. So far the Plastics seem to be based off of the Metals, likely reducing many of those steps, so all that’s really left to be the reason that this is taking so long is it’s just left to “it’s in China”

While being outsourced to Asia can add time into the production, certainly it will I think it took about a month in shipment. They are likely releasing them they way they are in blocks to mitigate many of this time delays, there has still been 12+ months from the RELEASE of wave one, when you get about 10 times the number of releases in the other lines in that time period. Unless it is taking them 6 months to ship stuff things aren’t adding up. There has only been one additional release. So far it is as you point out 3 from the last release, a new batch could have been here and being prepped for sale right now, (if you take the time from [url="http://&lt;a%20href="http://www.reapermini.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=31843"%20target="_blank"&gt;http://www.reapermin...843&#60;/a&#62;"] Apr 30 2008, 03:57 PM to May 28th [/url] as prep time, which is likely the same for any mini (while Wave two was slowed for ReaperCon) all of them have to be packaged etc. So it must be for that it is taking loads of time to ship things all over the world, sorry to say but it’s 2008, there are things like telecommunications that could reduce a number of those long waits, I would not saying you could or should do it for everything/all of them, but you should be able to get a good enough view/idea of what something looks like with out having to ship it at every stage, or yeah you are wasting time and money.

So is that what you are doing shipping everything at every step, and that is the hold up?

This is to more All Terrain Monkey, as to your comment “I would think most intelligent consumers wouldn't look at the number of releases between DH, Warlord, and Chronoscope and have "No confidence" in LE.” The unfortunate thing is pretty much out side of the following here at Reaper that is Exactly what people are doing because there is no movement, from what I see in various other message boards many people are seeing no confidence in LE because of the lack of movement with it.

This all started because an old old friend of mine who 20 years ago gave me his first ed books, was now looking to get back into D&D with his young son. He bought the new Shadowfell module and was looking for minis for it, he knew I play/played D&D still and was wondering where I got my minis for stuff, I told him of many options, paint your own metal, or plastic, he was more interested in the plastics for time reasons, so I mentioned D&D, Rack, EM4, and Reaper. Since it was I think almost 4 months since i had been here, and i haven't been following LE that closely since, he came here looked and was like "what the heck they line isn’t doing anything it’s dead", it has done only 16 miniatures in a year, and with no mention of the Kobolds and goblins he was looking for, and he saw the way other minis were coming out regularly all the time and he is the one that mentioned No Confidence in Reaper and wrote you off.

And he is not the only one.

I also suspect that LE will be a dead line soon, if not already.

The folks at Reaper have not been at all happy with the quality of painting that they have been receiving from the factory, for the price that they have been paying…

Hopeful as I was for LE when it was first announced, I cannot help but feel that it is a doomed attempt.


I still think Reaper could "save" LE if they really wanted to -- there's still a market for prepainted figures, after all, and Reaper has a huge library of great sculpts to work with. I don't think consumers are so fickle as to walk away from some really great product just because it bears some association with a line that had an ugly, delayed debut.

But I don't think they really want to. They seem happy to accept that poor sales indicate lack of interest rather than poor execution, and they're success with metal figures has them more confident about branching out in metal than in expanding into plastic.

A lot of people said Reaper was showing a "me, too!" mentality with LE, and I think lines like Chronoscope hint at truth in that. Reaper doesn't seem to have had any real inspiration or commitment to plastics, but with Chronoscope they've shown what they can do when they really do care, and really do have an idea. They seem far more comfortable producing different kinds of metal figures than with giving the market more of what it already has a ton of (plastics).


At the message boards I frequent (and these are from not Miniatures boards, it’s general RPG/skirmish/war gamers etc where people are not for or against a companies miniatures) people have already written off LE.

These are non-random plastic pre-paints though, why would consumers lose confidence in it?

Because it does not show a product I am interested in spending time or money on, time on following it and looking for product to buy. IE if this line is dead I’m not going to come to the Reaper page to see if there is a Kobold, Gnoll, etc to buy I will go else where, and people are. The Confidence that I won’t be wasting my time on looking at Reaper as an option. As is stand now, people are looking else where because there is no news, no movement ahead with new product, on the message boards I frequent where miniatures are a topic, the consensus is LE is dead and people have moved on. Add the Reaper “soon” and there is no confidence that this will change any time soon, meaning LE is dead, and killing itself because it isn’t moving forward and producing any new product. You then see other newer lines outpacing LE, you see new lines coming out, and it looks like Reaper it self doesn’t have confidence in LE, it isn’t moving forward, and is instead making other things. Sorry to say but that to me looks like, reaper is saying, “yeah we don’t care about this line, we will let it sit quietly and die.”

And Well Reaper does have a game tied to this; these are all legal in Warlord, so it can and should bolster that as well as being used for other games. RPG’s etc.

So sorry got to say the lack of any movement and the pushing forward on other things makes LE look dead.

#13 Kuni

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Posted 08 August 2008 - 12:21 PM

Sadly, I have to agree with G_S.

While I love the latest wave (the mindflayer is just far and above better than the recent WotC ones), there's no perception of movement, and launching 2 new metal lines in the meantime does definitely suggest that Reaper's not really super-focused in this area.

Working in China does have significant time delays compared to the typical "all in-house" pewter setup, but it just doesn't appear that Reaper's giving the line much attention, and from the LE website, there's certainly no perception of attention/movement, which is really the critical thing from a customer point of view.

#14 Sergeant_Crunch

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Posted 08 August 2008 - 12:29 PM

Umm, the miniatures are available, they've been getting restocked, I wouldn't call that dead. Way I see it, the line is only dead when all production has ceased. Why does it constantly have to have new pieces? I wonder what would would happen if a company said "We're going to make a line of only 50 sculpts, no more, but we'll continue to produce them as long as they sell." Would that line be "dead" as well?

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#15 vejlin

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Posted 08 August 2008 - 12:31 PM

so if the line sells really well, actually better than anyone at reaper could have anticipated how is the line dying?

This is all about your expectations. That the line falls short of your exectations (or the expectations of a bunch of people) doesn't mean it's failing. What little info we've gotten about sales of the line indicates it is doing very well.

"me and these three other guys think the line is failing" = subjective and can't be generalized
Reaper employees stating that the line is selling well = fact

I know which of the two I'll trust.
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