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#16 Memphisto

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Posted 14 September 2009 - 07:59 PM

Anyone wanting an auto-win in a small 500 point game should give this a try:

Nefsokar - 499 points

Troop 1
Neb'nesew Ne'pet
Fatima
Sokar's Prophets
Khamsin Herdsman x 4

Troop 2
Sokar's Avatar

Luck Stone

Send the Avatar out across the table and see if your opponent can take it out. Do this:

Turn 1 - NebNesew casts Airwalk, Fatima cast Divine Vigor, Prophet casts Hide. All on the Avatar Avatar double moves.
Turn 2 - Fatima + Prophet cast Divine Vigor on the Avatar. Avatar attacks with FIVE mighty swing-through MAV 7 attacks. :devil:
Turn 3-5 - See Turn 2. Cure or Resurrection the Avatar with NebNesew + Fatima as needed.



Fortunately (unfortunately?) this more or less works in 1000pts as well. My opinion is Fatima + Avatar of Sokar = I win. Very sick combo.

#17 Qwyksilver

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Posted 15 September 2009 - 09:04 AM

So that just means you need to remove Fatima from play first, since she is the weaker link in that chain.

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#18 jdripley

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Posted 15 September 2009 - 03:22 PM

Or overwhelm the Avatar with attacks. DV 11 isn't exactly difficult to hit if you're trying. And the presence of models with Damage Reduction are wonderful reasons to have models with Pierce or Cleave in your army. If I were trying to take down the Avatar I'd hit it at range with Pierce (assuming my army has the SA), then charge some Cleave models in. Knowing me I'd try to get some Reach models behind the Cleavers, but strictly speaking it's not necessary as you'll get support since the Avatar has a giant base. I just like Reach models because of their high MAV values. 7 damage will kill the Avatar, so with a layered approach to attacking it you ought to be able to bring it down in one go.

Perhaps models with Mighty, Savage, would also be useful, although they tend to be solos or expensive leaders that you might not want to let the Avatar demolish.

So it's a powerful combination, but it's hardly an auto win. The speed on the Avatar makes him hard to ignore though - he will get to your army and he will break stuff.
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#19 Memphisto

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Posted 15 September 2009 - 04:19 PM

Or overwhelm the Avatar with attacks. DV 11 isn't exactly difficult to hit if you're trying. And the presence of models with Damage Reduction are wonderful reasons to have models with Pierce or Cleave in your army. If I were trying to take down the Avatar I'd hit it at range with Pierce (assuming my army has the SA), then charge some Cleave models in. Knowing me I'd try to get some Reach models behind the Cleavers, but strictly speaking it's not necessary as you'll get support since the Avatar has a giant base. I just like Reach models because of their high MAV values. 7 damage will kill the Avatar, so with a layered approach to attacking it you ought to be able to bring it down in one go.

Perhaps models with Mighty, Savage, would also be useful, although they tend to be solos or expensive leaders that you might not want to let the Avatar demolish.

So it's a powerful combination, but it's hardly an auto win. The speed on the Avatar makes him hard to ignore though - he will get to your army and he will break stuff.


While DV11 is not hard to hit, it is tough to overwhelm and take the avatar down without incurring 100+ pts in model loss in the process. This is assuming the Avatar player is just throwing the model in there as a meat shield or playing it wontonly. The model is already costed very aggressively and that it's in a faction with ressurrection makes it twice as nice. Also, it has deflect/2 so unless you're using waaay more than the avatar's pt value in uber archers, you aren't hitting it AND overcoming DR/2 in a combat action. While you're dealing with the Avatar, deciding to send in even more resources to the very far flanks -- behind the Avatar -- of Nefsokar's army to assassinate Fatima so that she doesn't respawn that Avatar you've poured resources into killing might look like a good idea, but against an equally matched player you'll be very likely spending more than the 64pts Fatima's worth to get the job done on turn 2 or 3. The point isn't so much that Fatima + Sokar's Avatar is an autowin; it's that for 50%(25% in 1000pt) of one's army cost, it takes the focus of virtually an entire warband to neutralize the threat. Again, this is my own experience (not an academic excercize) in about half a dozen games of Nefsokar vs. Elves and Nefsokar vs. Darkspawn.

All that said, I don't know enough about other factions to know if there aren't other uber combos out there (I am not seeing them in Elves or Darkspawn though; although barrage + Xeldorian is hellasexy if played well)

#20 vejlin

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 12:30 AM

Most people tend to focus on soldiers with high DV and MAV values, but against stuff with Damage Reduction the #MA stat is actually more important. If you're playing nefsokar, reven, overlords or crusaders there are cheap soldiers available with #MA 3 (Dervish, Harpy, Daughter of the Whip and Battle Nun respectively), which is something that might be worth trying out.

But yes against my normal builds facing this Nef list would be a problem.
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#21 ViciousPanzer

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 03:14 AM

I can think of atleast 1 500 point list that will reliably destroy that one, mebbe two, just off the top of my head. . .heheh

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#22 jdripley

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 05:06 AM

Well even if you were guarantee to lose 100 points in soldiers (which isn't too hard to imagine, the better infantry choices run around 50 points a piece), that's still half of the cost.

re: Deflect and archers - the idea is to use a high volume of attacks in order to hopefully score a few hits. Even if your archers only soak up the two Damage Reduction hits, at that point your soldiers run in and aren't dealing with a Damage Reduction model anymore, just a DV 11 monster with many damage tracks that will cream them on defensive strikes. Heck, spread your attackers out on two sides of the base and bring a model with Disable (and pray it hits!!), use some reach models.. You could put a solid trooper on one side with two reachers, and a disable model with two reachers on the other side. That's 4 reach attacks plus whatever the troopers have (say, 4 or 5?) for a total of 8 or 9 attacks and the Avatar can only kill a single model in return.

It's possible. And overcomitting isn't necessarily as bad as it sounds. Generally speaking, if you commit an even point value in models to take down a threat, the forces will equalize.. both will be dead or severely wounded. If you over commit your chances are higher of taking the model down before it can kill too many of your own models.
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#23 vejlin

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 05:25 AM

With an army that's not purpose built for the task of taking down a specific enemy I tend to focus about twice as many points on an opponent to reliably take him down in a single activation. In return the opponent will destroy about half of his own points value. This fits well with the basic exercise in military thinking of concentrating fighting power at a critical point at a critical time. However the only way you can reliably do this in a game where the opponent starts out with as many points as you do is to spread your forces thinly in other places.

This opens up another possibility. Deny the opponent the ability to concentrate his fighting power effectively by feeding his big monster of a melee model with near worthless models. An Avatar of Sotek that during the course of a 5 turn battle manages to kill 5 skeleton warriors, 5 goblins or 5 bondslaves is a waste. And while your opponent spends most of the battle killing less than 50-60 points worth of models with his hundreds of points, you've got point superiority everywhere else on the battlefield. It may seem silly, but charging the Avatar with a lone soldier and then NOT attacking, can actually make sense.

Edited by vejlin, 16 September 2009 - 05:26 AM.

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#24 Gus Landt

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 05:28 AM

When putting together your opposing list with all these uber ranged attacks and cleave guys, don't forget you only have 500 points to play with. Can you post an army list that you would build if you knew you were facing my list?
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#25 jdripley

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 03:31 PM

Dwarves - 498 points
Troop 1
King Thorgram Grimsteel
Swiftaxe x 5
Piercer x 6
Kara Foehunter

Luck Stone

That gives you 8 chances to pierce. Not really going to happen very much, but the idea is to soak DR and hopefully scratch it up a bit. The swiftaxes can use Rush attack to engage on the same turn that the piercers send their first volley.

*Assuming that the Avatar may very easily end up getting the drop on the Dwarves, I'd deploy with 1.5" between all of the Swiftaxes, with the Piercers and Thorgram clustered in the middle. Once the insanity begins, you can assume three swiftaxes plus Thorgram. Put Thorgram alone on a side to make the ultimate sacrifice for his clan by taking all the hits (provoke) on defensive strikes. Thorgram will hit for 4 damage. Not always, but it is very likely. Swiftaxes may hit for a few more. If you used your Piercers as well, that ought to be a dead Avatar. That many piercers should be able to deal with the casters after the Avatar smokes your melee on defensive strikes.

In General Discussion I also posted a list using Abjorn, Gilam, 6 Miners, and the Stone Spirit + equipment for 500 points of "haha I get to hit first no matter what" goodness. I like that approach as well.

*This list has two Spies and a Tactician card. It's actually quite likely that the Dwarf player could activate first. I think that I'd leave Tactician out for turn one, and I'd save the Spy uses for later in the game. I actually want you to be over aggressive with the Avatar so I can get it out of the way and not have to deal with the casters at the same time.
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#26 Memphisto

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 10:50 AM

Nefsokar Warband Breakdown:



I break Nefsokar down to two flavors which are the undead/awakened (Hand of Sokar doctrine) and the Mehet Hesep faithful (People of the Desert Wind doctrine).

This faction breakdown focuses on the Hand of Sokar brand of Nefsokar, my personal army preferrence. The bent towards Divine Tome Spellcasters makes buffing spells very important to fine-tuning one's army. Many of the leaders have access to the Divine Tome which should be accessed liberally throughout any combat.

Infantry:

Line - Your line keeps your opponent's resources tied up, while spell casters, solos, leaders and elites dish the real pain. The blessing spell is so good as is, but it's critical with Infantry. I keep my Line models buffed with blessing for as long as possible during combat - it makes the Tough/x SA so annoying and reliable, your opponent will weep from repeated, wasted kill rolls.

Awakened Mummy (18pts): Very cheap; MAV of 4 with 2 MA for the cost is strong and gives you the cost advantage in most one-on-one soldier fights. Add to that the Mindless, Tough/0 and Undead SA's and this is a resistant front line staple of fodder for your ranks. While they go down fast, they make excellent swarm troops when taking advantage of the support rule and being recipients of the blessing spell (2 MA's at MAV 6 will hurt bad and cost you little in total points). I find that if I run about 6-9 of these models in a blessed troop, their tough SA gets utilized nicely.

Tomb Guard (48pts): Very expensive; 30 more points than a Mummy and the same close combat statistics, so what makes them any good? Staying power. Tomb Guards have 3 damage tracks, Deflect/2 (DV 13 vs. ranged) and Tough/2, making them a great choice if you're facing significant ranged forces or mobs. Playing about four of these seems the sweet spot; too many more than this and you risk losing a lot of points quickly to well-placed AoE spells or specialty ranged units with sharpshooter.

Specialty -

Annubis Guard (32pts): The strength of this unit is deploying them via spellcaster(s) concurrent with engaging combat with units from the same troop. For the cost, I would recommend only having a couple of these units to assist in round two engagement in a specific role. Bring your troop to bear on tough opponent units, summon the AG, who can provoke, resist some enemy SAs via construct and elimination via DR/1; your remaining forces should inflict heavy casualities, while the AG absorb retaliatory strikes.

Support -

Daughter of Sekhmet (25pts): For the cost, filling the line with this unit might not be a bad option; for my taste though, I prefer this unit in a support role. DR/1, Pike, Reach, Deflect/1 and some immunities with a MAV of 5 - Wow! The Daughters make excellent support units and cleaners in rounds three-four.

Casters:

Support/Buffer -

Fatima (64pts): With access to a couple castings of resurrection and buffing, Fatima is an auto-include in all my Nefsokar builds. She is very versitile, especially if you only reserve one casting of resurrection allowing for more healing and blessing spells. Keep her way in the back of the ranks - she doesn't need to be anywhere near the fight. I rarely move her more than 6 inches from her starting position from beginning to end of the game. If she's vulnerable to assassination, consider buffing her with stone skin if you've brought a caster with the incantation tome with your troops. One tactic with Fatima that I will use if I suspect it's going to be too much work to protect her from an efficient, mobile assassin is to cast resurrection early on in the game. For example: recklessly throw out a combat leader, like Khufu, as bait to draw the enemy, let him get eliminated while you manuever with other units, then resurrect him in the second or third round.

Thoth (77pts): I vascilate on this model. I think it's a finesse piece and is hard to play in order to extract his point value. I'm not sure I'm a good enough player yet to really get his value, but his staying power coupled with access to wall of stone as a defensive spell, and buffing capabilities makes me think he has a place in the right army build.

Sokar's Prophet (45pts): Part Death's River and other Divine Tome buffing spells makes this model hard not to include. For those who like tactical strikes as part of the game, Sokar's Prophet is a necessary component for mobility and augmenting stats.

Netikerti (53pts): Tactical utility via Incantation Tome along with being one of the few units in the game that can cast summon spectral minions, makes Netikerti a sexy choice. That said, I'm not a fan of the Death Tome, outside the summoning spell and find Netikerti a tad bit expensive for my playing preferrences. If the spectral minions can bog down a powerful enemy though, she becomes worth including…but this is usually hindsight not foresight.

Solos:

Tank -

Avatar of Sokar (198pts): One of the most aggressively costed units in the game. The Avatar is a killing machine that requires a tremendous amount of resources to take down. You should have Fatima in your warband as well - making this one-two combo absolutely terrifying to face. I don't think it's a fun combo in 500pt games, as it's unbalanced and unfun (for your opponent), but in 1000pt+ games, the Avatar and Fatima are the core of any Nefsokar warband that's seriously looking to win games.

Assassin -

Giant Scorpion (84pts): Begin the game burrowed (or summon as burrowed later in the game) and go get the expensive caster or leader in your enemy's warband. Hardy, accurate and disabling, the Giant Scorpion is a precision tool.

Khathan (87pts): Very difficult and risky to use, Khathan is fragile and expensive. If you miss with a bow shot, she could wind up dead the following round and you're out close to 90pts. I haven't been able to skilfully use her well, but for a more experienced player she might come in handy.

Specialist -

Efreeti Emir (84pts): If you face a lot of Inferno Tome, Maladorn or Overlord playing opponents, the Efreeti is a good choice. He's cheaper than a lot of the other incinerating troops in the game and can help neutralize a more costly threat on the board.

Dust Devil (69pts): With its mobility and SAs, the Dust Devil can play the role of assassin or fodder buster. Base as many cheap units as you can and go frenzy with 8 attacks (albeit at MAV of 1). Very fragile, the Dust Devil's strength is in it's incredible mobility - use it wisely and time your engagement, as it likely won't live out any attack it participates in.

#27 Shakandara

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 01:01 PM

Awakened Mummy (18pts): Very cheap; MAV of 4 with 2 MA for the cost is strong and gives you the cost advantage in most one-on-one soldier fights. Add to that the Mindless, Tough/0 and Undead SA's and this is a resistant front line staple of fodder for your ranks. While they go down fast, they make excellent swarm troops when taking advantage of the support rule and being recipients of the blessing spell (2 MA's at MAV 6 will hurt bad and cost you little in total points). I find that if I run about 6-9 of these models in a blessed troop, their tough SA gets utilized nicely.

Just a quick reminder; Mindless models do not gain the benefit of Support. They do, however, count for the purpose of granting non-Mindless models Support bonuses.

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#28 Memphisto

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 01:44 PM

Awakened Mummy (18pts): Very cheap; MAV of 4 with 2 MA for the cost is strong and gives you the cost advantage in most one-on-one soldier fights. Add to that the Mindless, Tough/0 and Undead SA's and this is a resistant front line staple of fodder for your ranks. While they go down fast, they make excellent swarm troops when taking advantage of the support rule and being recipients of the blessing spell (2 MA's at MAV 6 will hurt bad and cost you little in total points). I find that if I run about 6-9 of these models in a blessed troop, their tough SA gets utilized nicely.

Just a quick reminder; Mindless models do not gain the benefit of Support. They do, however, count for the purpose of granting non-Mindless models Support bonuses.

~v



Thanks - I've forgotten that in play too. tough one for me to remember, for whatever reason.

#29 jdripley

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 03:42 PM

Thanks for the write up! I love hearing other people's takes on models. You got me to take a second look at Netikerti, whom I hadn't really given much thought before. I like the spell selection, and the depth of SP. I may end up putting her in my 1500 list, we'll see.



In other news, how's this for a 1k Desert Wind all cavalry army?

Nefsokar - 998 points
Troop 1

Senet Net'merew
Book of Tactics
Atifa
Ibrahim
Khamsin Raider x 2
Khamsin Lancer x 3
Khamsin Archer x 2
Troop 2
Ah'radivh
Ibrahim x 2
Khamsin Lancer x 4
Troop 3
Anwar
Ibrahim
Khamsin Raider x 2
Khamsin Archer x 2
Khamsin Lancer x 3
=26 models, 3 troops, 4 cards, 1 spy

Somewhat lacking in the DV department... The idea of course is to delay one of their nastier troops and use Ranger and the high movement speeds of the cavalry models to rush in and engage first turn. Atifa's Burst of Speed can come in handy there. I tried to give troop 1 and 3 a mixture of attack options, but I'm re-thinking that. Perhaps I want all of the archers in Senet's troop so I have one troop I can use if I draw first card of the game? I can move them up and let out a hail of arrows. Then on the next cards I can send in the melee after (hopefully) the enemy has moved forward a little. And maybe I really want Atifa in one of the melee troops so she can coordinate Burst of Speed a little better?

Thoughts?
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#30 Stubbdog

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 04:03 PM

Don't forget Senet's WA. It can have a major impact on how you want to build this list.

I also like taking Atifa in the group, although I tend to use her for her chain lightning to soften the enemy up before lots of first strike swift attacks come pouring in. I will take a Sokar's Prophet instead of Ibrahim to do the burst of speed or a bless if needed. Or, heck, you have a double burst of speed this way if you really need it.

As far as delaying goes, the mistake is actually to delay enemy archer troops. Only do this if they set them up such that you cant get to them at all or if they have a bunch of them. Enemy melee troops, I guess it all depends on who it is and the chances you have of taking them out with your teamed up first strike swift attacks.

If the enemy has no ranged attacks or very few, then the best tactic is to throw out everything from above and be patient and let them come to you. Your speed still works and you wont be spread out all over the table with no ability to support each other. The 1st turn charge across the table works only if you can take out enough models to make it.

Toss in armor of courage with free inspiring, rage, battle totem, and support bonuses and you can be looking at very high swift attack first strike numbers (remember if you kill something with first strikes, then unless they also have pike or first strike they do not get any defensive swings).

Just some food for thought.

Oh, and for those other times, dont forget the Sandstorm spell...




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