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1. There are a lot of factions that have some good range capability, many have one or more units that just by themselves can provide a ton of fire support.  I actually fought a very similar army recently with the dwarves and between earthquake and Snorri laying down some ranged support there were problems for my friend the necropolis player.  Range always matters, just sometimes it is used wrong.

 

Who has then this good ranged capability? Elven heroes with barrage? We use antiblast order. Crossbowmen et al. with Pierce? Consider Naomi casts Arcane Shield (we get 14DV!) or simply Wall of Fire with base size 1 to simply block LoS. Use terrain. Then simply make BtB with enemy shooters, let them roll DIS. Opponent's investment in ranged just gives you an advantage in melee. Only Razig with Sharpshooters and Slow Fire is a poor matchup, but as our Vampire is ineffective against undead, we have not many chances either. The same applies to construct-heavy Nefsokar.

 

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2.   I can agree with this in some ways because it is actually a tough group to have just running around.   But it does not have the same role as a burrowing DR2, 4#MA 8MAV unit with bludgeon and fearsome.  The Grave Horror is a suppression unit that can even make other Giant sized figures flinch when it is on the attack.  So it just depends on what you intend If you need a nut cracker that can hurt things about as tough as any in the game Grave Horror is a good one. if you need swings and more area to cover go with the Ghasts.

 

Big monsters work wonders against noobies, but an experienced opponent always has enough means to counter them. Just block, or surround and concentrate many attacks with inspire and support, use Stun. Horror only inflicts 4! wounds at most, he has no Swing-Through, Mighty, even Cleave. You pay much for Burrow. If it charges, you enjoy Bludgeon, but it can nothing spectacular on defense. Are you sure that you have the charge, not an opponent? Why did I write about Giant - for the same points it is MUCH more dangerous model and to defeat it you must invest more resources. Just count what Graverot's troop does on charge with inspire and support against the Horror? 3x(5+2 MAV)+4*2x(4+2 MAV) with possible Curse and Savage. Yes, they may fail DIS, but on 4+ 3 out of 5 should reach the target. In the case the Horror charges, they lose a couple of Gasts and still may  counterattack effectively, if the player doesn't expose Graverot.

 

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3.  Swift attack is an excellent ability that in many ways is useful to attack something much meaner than the attacker and limit the damage that you might receive in return.   One very good use of Swift attack is to make an attack on something without too much fear of death then move on to base a unit with first strike.  Now you don't have to worry about getting killed without ever seeing your defensive swings in return.

 

Swift strike is only meaningful for flyer (burrower), in order not to be easily engaged and punished during the enemy activation. The enemy should cast then Winglock at first but you use an anti-blast order. Here the things are clear. If you have First Stirke, you may even hunt a more serious enemy, concentrating your models, or reap those wounded enemies with formidable tough value without any response. The bats may indeed be used to hunt spellcasters or something weak, but they don't fit into the role of the main hitting power. With DV9 and MD10! they won't survive a turn of even modest shooting and casting. Even the poor caster with CP7 is hitting on 2/3+. And what should Judas do, entering BtB (he cannot play with swift strikes), while his support dies in one activation and he gets swarmed and kicked to death?

 

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4.   Your particular games do not actually prove nor disprove the effectiveness of zombies, nor the Hill Giant, just like my last battle against zombies only proved they were at most a nuisance and 0 threat for an entire game Luck sometimes is more important than a good plan.  Sometimes things just work out.  Zombies on their own are slow space eaters that faster units will move around to get to targets of value.  They are very good when used with other units though as they can take the hits while another unit does the damage and can give support bonuses even though they do not receive them.

 

A good wargamer strives to minimize the dependence on luck. You use redundancy, maximize you abilities and minimize those of your opponent. You think in terms of fulfilling the scenario and not just how to kill everything, etc. If you can catch a heavy hitter with cheap speed bumps, block him for even one turn - it's great. You put such cheap models also to screen your hitters, to protect them from enemy, so they get to charge themselves when the circumstances are right. If the enemy can firestorm/shoot them and charge past your screen - it was your mistake to allow that. Each faction has models for this role, but zombies are just more effective than many others.

I didn't say that the army of zombies can do anything, just that they have no trouble dealing with powerful melee models. With Rhasia they indeed work wonders as an army.

And I've mentioned Giant, because with Swing-Through and Mighty he is a very serious melee opponent against a numerous enemy.

 

I've used zombies extensively for this build Moandain+Phylactery, Dauron, Nivar, 6 burrowing and 6 simple zombies, or as a simple fodder like Kentaur, 4 Crimson Knights, 4 zombies

Edited by Reinchard

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Antiblast order - is a term used by WH40k players (and many others) to describe the technique to minimize the number of friendly models under a possible template (3", 5", chain lightning etc. depending upon the opponent) There is a dichotomy: if you place models wide enough, they lack Mov to make combined charge and allow enemy to engage them one piece at a time, but if they stuck together, they suffer from templates.

 

With Mov as low as 5 you have to take a spellcaster for dispel and use screen to block LoS not only to Judas and Knights, but to the surface nearby, because the template not necessarily must be centered on a model.

 

I've discussed the issue with a friend of mine, whose experience with Vamps surpasses mine. So, our suggestion:

Necropolis

- 997 points

Troop 1 (714 pts)
Judas Bloodspire, Anointed of Hars
Armor of Courage
Naomi, Mistress of Wings
Phylactery
Vanderast, Bloodseeker Vampire
Crimson Knight x 4
Zombie x 4
Chattel x 2

Troop 2 (222 pts)
Sir Athak, Crimson Knight
Crimson Knight x 2
Chattel x 2

Troop 3 (58 pts)
Gargoyle

Troop 4 (3 pts)
Luck Stone

 

The number of zombie/chattel models may vary, but I personally consider having at least 1 screening model for 1 being screened. We use screen not only against ranged/magic, but also to protect Vampires against enemy charge, because we may feed only on our activation. Don't forget about Provoke, it's one of the most useful SA out there.

 

PS. and even much better:

 

Necropolis

- 1000 points

Troop 1 (714 pts)
Judas Bloodspire, Anointed of Hars
Armor of Courage
Naomi, Mistress of Wings
Phylactery
Vanderast, Bloodseeker Vampire
Crimson Knight x 4
Zombie x 4
Chattel x 2

Troop 2 (225 pts)
Graverot, Ghast
Armor of Courage
Ghast x 5

Troop 3 (58 pts)
Gargoyle

Troop 4 (3 pts)
Luck Stone
Edited by Reinchard

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On 1/11/2013 at 8:40 AM, Shakandara said:

 

The list looks legal, and you are correct about the Skeletal Giant.

 

Much like my comment from the Dwarven thread, I recommend mixing your grunt models a little more in troop 1 and 2. I'd move 2 of each model to the opposite troop. A couple things are going to happen when you do this, and not all of them are 100% good. Moving 2 archers does dilute your fire-power with them a bit (a single activation of 4 ranged attacks can be more effective in some situations), however, it gives you combined arms in Elsabeth's troop, where you can use them to try to finish off targets that have been wounded in melee. Moving 2 spearmen gives Judas and the 2 remaining warriors some Reach support, letting them play the 2nd line role they are designed for. Also, moving 2 chattel gives Judas something to feed on as well.

 

~v

 

Would it be best to use the Devourer Doctrine with this build or the Crypt Legion Doctrine?

 

Necropolis - Judas Crypt Legion II - 1000 points


Troop 1 (452 pts)
Judas Bloodspire, Anointed of Hars
Magic Weapon
Naomi, Mistress of Wings
Phylactery
Bat Swarm
Chattel x 2
Skeletal Archer x 2
Skeletal Swordsman x 2
Skeletal Spearman x 2

Troop 2 (210 pts)
Elsabeth Briarkiss
Magic Weapon
Chattel x 2
Skeletal Archer x 2
Skeletal Swordsman x 2
Skeletal Spearman x 2

Troop 3 (113 pts)
Graverot, Ghast
Ghoul x 2
Zombie x 2

Troop 4 (174 pts)
Gargoyle x 3

Troop 5 (48 pts)
Kaena, Banshee

Troop 6 (3 pts)
Luck Stone
Total Models: 29
Damage Traoks: 54


 

Crypt Legion DoctrineWarlord 2nd Edition - page 103  

Dark Energy All Skeletal Models gain the Tough/0 SA.
Fear of Undeath Enemy models with the Fearless SA lose the benefits of that SA for the duration of the battle.

 

Devourer DoctrineWarlord 2nd Edition - page 103  

The Hunger Models with both the Bloodlust and Vampire SAs gain +2 Bloodlust bonus intead of the normal +1.
Fear of Undeath Enemy models with the Fearless SA lose the benefits of that SA for the duration of the battle.

 

Edited by Dark Horse

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Depends on what you value more  +1 MAV bonus on wounded units with Judas, and Elsabeth, or your 12 1 track skeletons having a 10% chance of standing back up after taking damage.

 

To be honest I would never go with crypt legion.  I find it the absolute worst Doctrine in the game outside of "Fear of Undeath" which is on the Devourer Doctrine as well and is far superior.  If Necropolis had anything else that the doctrine would work on other than the 1 track skeletons I would be more ambivilent toward it but even the Skeleton Giant, and bone horror do not gain a benefit from it.  So I would say devourer every time.

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another thread was talking about bad and ridiculous lists. This is what I came up with. Just to try out a mass of tough/5 soldiers and attempting to mitigate their weaknesses.

Necropolis

- 1000 points

Troop 1 (776 pts)
Rhasia, Zombie Queen
Burrowing Zombie x 17
Musician
Sir Dauron, Death Knight x 2

Troop 2 (124 pts)
Sir Gadrun, Deathrider
Deathrider x 2

Troop 3 (100 pts)
The Altar of Blood and Death
Total Models: 23
Damage Traoks: 56


 

Graveyard Doctrine Warlord 2nd Edition - page 103  

Dance of the Dead Whenever an enemy model is destroyed, make an 10+ roll. On a sucessful roll, replace the destroyed model with a Animated Corpse model, of the same Base Size as the destroyed model, with the following stats:
DMG 0, MOV 5, DIS 5, DV 7, MD 10, MA 2, MAV 2
SA: Mindless, Tough/3, Undead
The Animate Corpse joins the Troop that just activated, ignoring Troop Capacity.
Fear of Undeath Enemy models with the Fearless SA lose the benefits of that SA for the duration of the battle.


 

Rhasia, Zombie Queen Warlord Benefits

Voodoo All models in Rhasia's Troop with the Tough SA gain +1 to Tough.

 
   
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I actually like this list a lot.  It has a mind numbing number of high tough rolls and with the totem can actually threaten things in a normal game while getting stronger with every successful animated corpse raised from dead enemy.

 

I have made a couple of armies very similar to this and eagerly await an opportunity to use them.

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The only thing I'm worried about are

1)Models with First strike and/or assassin which bypass tough

2)Fast flying models that can desecrate the idol. (which is why I took the knights, to scout them)

3)The musician helps a little with the crawling pace of the army, but it isn't quite enough to deal with fast cavalry gaining total control of the board

4)Only 2 cards in the initiative deck may be a problem

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These are problems for sure and getting in close can be hard but it has its quality of some hard hitters hiding in tphe swarm combined with a few rolls going your way you could swarm kill most soldiers, while your big hitters then smash some heads. Maybe I will try to play one of these this week .

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