knarthex

House Tabletop Opens "The Gameroom" Come on in and talk Gaming and Paint!

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Going to play some deathwatch tomorrow night. Our GM is really insistent on having a devistator even though there is no one to play him.

 

So we have each made a really goofy one and are going to just spin the wheel to see which one follows around being a dumb kill bot. 

 

Pictured 3 of the 4 heavy weapons with legs.

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Played our latest Frostgrave game yesterday; the Storm of Undeath scenario from the Thaw of the Lich Lord book.   Carnage ensued, and fun was had! :).

A full report should be posted this week.  

 

 

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FROSTGRAVE QUESTION:

 

For my fellow Frostgravian players.

 

So my group kind of got upset with the spell Mind Control. That, in combination with Reveal Secret from one of our players that plays a Soothsayer. He effectively wins every time because he reveals secret (places another treasure on the board) Then runs in gets line of sight, Mind controls two people holding treasure (using his wizard for one and his apprentice for another) then runs them off the board. 

 

He has done it so much we are almost at the point of saying you can't use that spell. 

 

What do you guys think? What is an effective solution? 

 

One of our other players said he read on some other forums that people are having the same issue. ... 

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Mind Control is doing what it is supposed to.  It's a relatively difficult spell to cast, and gets a Will save.  Plus the wizard has to open themselves up in order to get line of sight.  How much terrain are you using?  If there is a lot of clear space I can see where it could get broken.

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Posted (edited)

I agree with what Dilvish has said.  It sounds like there may be too many open lanes of vision.  And are you remembering the Will roll every turn the soldier activates?  It takes a long time for a soldier  carrying treasure to get off the edge at half speed, so there should be plenty of time from them to break the spell with their Will.  

 

Kodak had Mind Control and I don't think there was more than handful of times it actually worked to get a treasure off the table.

 

There are several ways to defeat this.  I'd buy a grimoire of either Dispel or Draining Word.  Also Fog and Wall should help blind him.  Another tactic I'd try is to buy a warband of entirely crossbowmen.  That would teach him quickly to keep his head behind cover.  

 

Blinding Light and Furious Quill will also help make his life harder.

 

If you are allowing all troop types, a Bard will help keep your troops' Will high, and a Crow Master can help keep the wizard distracted with his annoying bird. 

 

Also, worse comes to worse, you are allowed to kill your own warband member who has been Mind Controlled. 

 

Edit: Also, a few well placed Bones Darts or Elemental Bolts should discourage the Soothsayer as well.

Edited by Chris Palmer
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2 hours ago, Dilvish the Deliverer said:

Mind Control is doing what it is supposed to.  It's a relatively difficult spell to cast, and gets a Will save.  Plus the wizard has to open themselves up in order to get line of sight.  How much terrain are you using?  If there is a lot of clear space I can see where it could get broken.

 

1 hour ago, Chris Palmer said:

I agree with what Dilvish has said.  It sounds like there may be too many open lanes of vision.  And are you remembering the Will roll every turn the soldier activates?  It takes a long time for a soldier  carrying treasure to get off the edge at half speed, so there should be plenty of time from them to break the spell with their Will.  

 

Kodak had Mind Control and I don't think there was more than handful of times it actually worked to get a treasure off the table.

 

There are several ways to defeat this.  I'd buy a grimoire of either Dispel or Draining Word.  Also Fog and Wall should help blind him.  Another tactic I'd try is to buy a warband of entirely crossbowmen.  That would teach him quickly to keep his head behind cover.  

 

Blinding Light and Furious Quill will also help make his life harder.

 

If you are allowing all troop types, a Bard will help keep your troops' Will high, and a Crow Master can help keep the wizard distracted with his annoying bird. 

 

Also, worse comes to worse, you are allowed to kill your own warband member who has been Mind Controlled. 

 

Edit: Also, a few well placed Bones Darts or Elemental Bolts should discourage the Soothsayer as well.

 

Wow, thanks for the responses y'all. Those words bring me hope. I guess we are not keeping behind cover enough. The link below to the battlelog for it. Take a look and tell me what you think. You can read a bit of my frustration with it in the post. Although I do propose a solution. It may just be my experience with the game and learning it. And the fact that the other guy keeps rolling high. He cast that spell A LOT. And we are using the base number for it. 

 

Additional question: Mind control says that "After each activation, the soldier may make a Will roll versus the casting roll to shake off the spell's effect. The way we have been playing we have to roll that number he rolled or higher to break it. meaning, if he rolls an 18 on the MC then next activation the soldier has to roll 18 to break it. Is that true?  A little confused. I just re-read it and I could kind of see it meaning you need a 12 (base casting number) to break it even if he rolls an 18.

 

The way we have been doing it, if it's wrong, would be the reason we are all getting frustrated with it.(?) 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

   You have been doing it right.  The Will roll is made vs. whatever the Wizard actually rolls; so if the wizard rolls an 18 to cast the spell,  the target will need to try roll an 18 or better each time it activates (adding it's Will number to the roll.)

    You say he casts the spell a lot, but the Wizard (and Apprentice) can only have a single figure under mind control at one time.  So at most there should ever only be 2 figures the pair can control.  

 

   From looking at the report, it appears it was a problem with just the one game where you opponent had the fortune to roll high a lot. Has it been a problem with every game?  Do they always roll high?  

 

Also, from the photos it does look like there is not enough cover, and what cover there is is lined up in neat rows creating very long line of sights.  We try to never few clear lines of sight be longer than about 12 inches.  And it should be rare to find places where you can draw a straight uninterrupted line from one side of the battlefield to the other.    

 

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In other news, I forgot to follow up from my earlier post and let folks know my report from our Frostgrave Campaign Game 5 has been posted:

http://onemoregamingproject.blogspot.com/2017/05/frostgrave-campaign-17-game-5-storm-of.html

 

 

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Edited by Chris Palmer
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3 minutes ago, Chris Palmer said:

   You have been doing it right.  The Will roll is made vs. whatever the Wizard actually rolls; so if the wizard rolls an 18 to cast the spell,  the target will need to try roll an 18 or better each time it activates (adding it's Will number to the roll.)

    You say he casts the spell a lot, but the Wizard (and Apprentice) can only have a single figure under mind control at one time.  So at most there should ever only be 2 figures the pair can control.  

 

   From looking at the report, it appears it was a problem with just the one game where you opponent had the fortune to roll high a lot. Has it been a problem with every game?  Do they always roll high?  

 

Also, from the photos it does look like there is not enough cover, and what cover there is is lined up in neat rows creating very long line of sights.  We try to never few clear lines of sight be longer than about 12 inches.  And it should be rare to find places where you can draw a straight uninterrupted line from one side of the battlefield to the other.    

 

 

There are some battles not reported because I forgot to take pictures. LOL. Ya He is a nice fellow, older gentlemen. He seems to roll high all the time. Then a few times he didn't get it he just spend health to boost it to passing. He would grab treasure then walk off the edge (2 player game) closes to him that was not my edge of the table. Maybe it was just a mishap this game that set me on edge about the spell. He bragged during this last game because he just won a tournament for FG using this very strategy. :| 

 

I'm absolutely going to do what you recommended with the 12inchs. That seems like a very good idea.  Note, he is a more experienced player than I am.

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I started a long post in reply but had to leave to take my daughter to her class before I finished it.  Hopefully it's still on the computer when I get home.

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Ok, I have had time to read your AAR and am home and can review my book.  I have some comments.  Feel free to ignore them as suits. ::D:

 

1. Terrain:  I agree with Chris about cluttering up the board.  It seems excessively grid like to me.  Blocking line of sight  is key to keeping enemy spell caster from blasting, mind controlling, pushing and doing nasty things to your troops.

 

2.  Mind Control:  Yes it sucks losing one of your people to the evil wizard.  The Soothsayer casts it every chance he gets; as he should!  Looking at his spell list, it's pretty much one of his only good choices.  All of the damaging magic (elementalist/necromancer) is +4 for him.  As stated, the target gets to resist this every action.  Additionally, itis fairly easy to stop a mind controlled soldier.  They are at have movement due to being encumbered with the treasure and are at a penalty to fight.  You could make sure that you have another model in the vicinity to tackle any treasure carriers.  Or leap them away, or keep them out of LOS as mentioned in the terrain above.  As far as him rolling high, I see that as just the breaks.  I wouldn't call foul on the elementalist rolling an 18 to blast one of my guys.

 

3.  Reveal Secret: Pretty much the only other consistently good spell the Soothsayer gets.  Extra token within 6 inches of caster's deployment area.  Both caster can attempt but only one token can be placed per game.  The thing is that while the caster has the advantage of being able to get to the treasure first, it is still up for grabs.  One question I have is how big is your table?  All of the spells are written and balanced for a 3x3 table.  So with a 6 inch deployment zone on each side and the Secret 6 inches outside, theoretically you could only be 18 inches away from the treasure.  So you could theoretically reach it or the figure carrying it.  If you are playing on a larger table, then you may want to adjust the minimum distances to compensate.

 

4. Getting treasure is the way to win the game:  That depends.  If your opponent has no more figures on the board, you get any unclaimed treasures.  You also get xp for your wizard killing things. So killing your opponent before he gets his treasure carriers off the board is a valid tactic.    Also, Mind Control only works on soldiers and creatures so if your wizard is hanging out with your treasure carrier, then if he has line of sight for mind control, then you very likely have line of sight for elemental bolt.

 

So to sum up: a cluttered table is your friend, geek the mage, contest his treasure carriers, and geek the mage.

 

In your other game, you had the apprentice dead to rights but called the game.  If you had taken him out (and the wizard) you had the potential of causing your opponent to waste resources healing or buying a new apprentice ( as well as losing any equipment the fig was carrying if it died).  That is another way to derail the Soothsayer if you can get them into a similar situation.  If you would the wizard, they are less likely to take damage to empower spells as well.

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13 hours ago, Dilvish the Deliverer said:

Ok, I have had time to read your AAR and am home and can review my book.  I have some comments.  Feel free to ignore them as suits. ::D:

Spoiler


1. Terrain:  I agree with Chris about cluttering up the board.  It seems excessively grid like to me.  Blocking line of sight  is key to keeping enemy spell caster from blasting, mind controlling, pushing and doing nasty things to your troops.

 

2.  Mind Control:  Yes it sucks losing one of your people to the evil wizard.  The Soothsayer casts it every chance he gets; as he should!  Looking at his spell list, it's pretty much one of his only good choices.  All of the damaging magic (elementalist/necromancer) is +4 for him.  As stated, the target gets to resist this every action.  Additionally, itis fairly easy to stop a mind controlled soldier.  They are at have movement due to being encumbered with the treasure and are at a penalty to fight.  You could make sure that you have another model in the vicinity to tackle any treasure carriers.  Or leap them away, or keep them out of LOS as mentioned in the terrain above.  As far as him rolling high, I see that as just the breaks.  I wouldn't call foul on the elementalist rolling an 18 to blast one of my guys.

 

3.  Reveal Secret: Pretty much the only other consistently good spell the Soothsayer gets.  Extra token within 6 inches of caster's deployment area.  Both caster can attempt but only one token can be placed per game.  The thing is that while the caster has the advantage of being able to get to the treasure first, it is still up for grabs.  One question I have is how big is your table?  All of the spells are written and balanced for a 3x3 table.  So with a 6 inch deployment zone on each side and the Secret 6 inches outside, theoretically you could only be 18 inches away from the treasure.  So you could theoretically reach it or the figure carrying it.  If you are playing on a larger table, then you may want to adjust the minimum distances to compensate.

 

4. Getting treasure is the way to win the game:  That depends.  If your opponent has no more figures on the board, you get any unclaimed treasures.  You also get xp for your wizard killing things. So killing your opponent before he gets his treasure carriers off the board is a valid tactic.    Also, Mind Control only works on soldiers and creatures so if your wizard is hanging out with your treasure carrier, then if he has line of sight for mind control, then you very likely have line of sight for elemental bolt.

 

So to sum up: a cluttered table is your friend, geek the mage, contest his treasure carriers, and geek the mage.

 

In your other game, you had the apprentice dead to rights but called the game.  If you had taken him out (and the wizard) you had the potential of causing your opponent to waste resources healing or buying a new apprentice ( as well as losing any equipment the fig was carrying if it died).  That is another way to derail the Soothsayer if you can get them into a similar situation.  If you would the wizard, they are less likely to take damage to empower spells as well.

 

 

 

 

Excellent, thank you! I will try and put all this into use. We were playing a drop game of no experience just base everything. The second game, We called it cause it was about that time to head home. 

 

I really appreciate the look-over fella's. Gives me hope to keep playing. It may sound petty but I don't play games I don't have fun with (imagine that) and I never seem to enjoy the game when I play with that particular guy. The other guys in the group I enjoy. We all get hits off. With him I don't get much from it before he darts off the board with all the treasure. But I'm going to try more tactical stuff next time; hiding, LOS, etc. Much appreciated. 

 

Not to mention the new Ulterior motives stuff. Having multiple objectives is how we play play our other wargames. Frostgrave has honestly been the only game with one objective for both sides, now that I think about it. Haha. 

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Also, are you running games with the wandering monsters or any of the scenarios?  That can change things up as well.

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9 minutes ago, Dilvish the Deliverer said:

Also, are you running games with the wandering monsters or any of the scenarios?  That can change things up as well.

 

nope and nope. Which i believe is one major issue. We are re-starting the campaign soon. We tried once but only got a game or two in before life happened and one guy dropped out completely. We just picked up a new guy (who also likes battletech) so we are looking to start. I'm thinking of purchasing that really cool game mat from over seas that is snow and ruins.. I can't remember the name of the company though. ahh

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