Jump to content

Heisler

MSP Open Judging - What you were afraid to ask

Recommended Posts

Judging is very educational for sure.  I am so glad I get to do it here in Colorado occasionally.  You get to see even the big names do stuff that you do--you just have to look for it a bit harder. :D  And Michael and Kris hate me.  I am sure of it.  Really.  :D

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
As far as techniques/styles go, I may say something like "too much gloss sealant is detracting from this mini" or "the drybrushing appears a little chalky" or something else along those lines, but pretty much every technique/style (I'm lumping them together on purpose) does have its place if executed well.  The trick is, I'm always leery of the "that's just my style" statement, which can sometimes come across as an excuse to use a familiar (but maybe not most appropriate) technique rather than a valid artistic defense.  Heck, I feel like I do the same thing at times when I may choose to avoid adding some wear and tear to a mini of mine because "my style is bright and happy".  Is that really the case, or am I just scared of "messing up" my mini with a possibly very appropriate technique that I feel I don't execute as well as other techniques?  What I am trying to say (maybe not very well...) is that every technique or style, when executed well, can and should receive its due affirmation and approval (and the judges want to give that!), but we all need to keep pushing ourselves to broaden our skill sets so that we can have the right "tools" ready for the "right" applications (understanding that art is subjective and that there may be many "right" tools and applications).

 

Hopefully that whole post has slightly more clarity than a puddle of mud...   :lol:

It's interesting to know how an unconventional style would be judged.

 

In another thread, I wondered how a Van Gogh style mini would be judged. The very visible brush strokes of impressionism when viewed up close, and exaggerated colors (which *is* common in miniature painting as high contrasts are pretty necessary at that scale).

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

keep in mind with art, a style can be done well, and poorly. most of the famous impressionists had classical training and a very good understanding of light and color.  their work reflected that understanding and training.  they weren't just slinging paint, but making conscious decisions, addressing composition, using color theory, making a consistent light source work, etc etc. It's harder than it looks to do well.  At our scale, we often don't have space for more than highlight, midtone, shadow; so it isn't wrong to see those transitions as long as it makes sense as a whole and is consistent.

 

I think consistency is one of the things that is the hardest to do and stick with.  I know I become fed up with a mini about the point where I need to buckle down and fix "all those little bits."  That's what takes us from good to better.  Discipline.  Sadly, because I has no willpower!  :lol:

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well put, Kris.

 

As someone with a fair bit of experience in both judging and being judged in a variety of arts, little of this is a surprise...but it's incredibly good information to have laid out in plain terms.

 

I think the only time I've disagreed with any judging I've received at Rcon has been...well, every time I've entered, the judges have chosen a piece other than the one I expected them to judge. But the scores I've received have been pretty in line with my expectations.

 

Thanks for putting this up for the forums!

 

This is always an interesting question. Anecdotally I would say that 50% of the time the piece that we pick is not the piece that you put your heart and soul into. This choice by the judges is one of the reasons that we encourage multiple entries in a category. You become so close to your favorite or primary entry that you missed stuff that should have been obvious. You were focused on one aspect of it to the detriment of something else and overall it its inconsistent because of the differences in techniques. Maybe you blew us away with your NMM or sheer (NNN) technique but something else fell by the wayside. Conversely the piece you are less invested in suddenly features some of your overall best work. Maybe your shaded metallic doesn't blew the judge away but its very good and it matches with the rest of the piece. Overall the piece you think is second best because you didn't spend as much time on it is better because you are more relaxed with it, more open minded, maybe tried something new that really set it apart from the rest without trying to go overboard.

 

I would suggest always bring at least two entries (although that is tough in some categories) but please, please don't bring everything you have painted in the last year!

Edited by Heisler
  • Like 11

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Well put, Kris.

 

As someone with a fair bit of experience in both judging and being judged in a variety of arts, little of this is a surprise...but it's incredibly good information to have laid out in plain terms.

 

I think the only time I've disagreed with any judging I've received at Rcon has been...well, every time I've entered, the judges have chosen a piece other than the one I expected them to judge. But the scores I've received have been pretty in line with my expectations.

 

Thanks for putting this up for the forums!

 

This is always an interesting question. Anecdotally I would say that 50% of the time the piece that we pick is not the piece that you put your heart and soul into. This choice by the judges is one of the reasons that we encourage multiple entries in a category. You become so close to your favorite or primary entry that you missed stuff that should have been obvious. You were focused on one aspect of it to the detriment of something else and overall it its inconsistent because of the vary levels of detail. Maybe you blew us away with your NMM or sheer (NNN) technique but something else fell by the wayside. Conversely the piece you are less invested in suddenly features some of your overall best work. Maybe your shaded metallic doesn't blew the judge away but its very good and it matches with the rest of the piece. Overall the piece you think is second best because you didn't spend as much time on it is better because you are more relaxed with it, more open minded, maybe tried something new that really set it apart from the rest without trying to go overboard.

 

I would suggest always bring at least two entries (although that is tough in some categories) but please, please don't bring everything you have painted in the last year!

 

That's... very useful. Actually this whole thread is great. Thank you!!

  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would suggest always bring at least two entries (although that is tough in some categories) but please, please don't bring everything you have painted in the last year!

You mean I CAN'T charter a plane to bring everything I've ever painted in my life to enter?!!!! *purple text of sarcasm*

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I would suggest always bring at least two entries (although that is tough in some categories) but please, please don't bring everything you have painted in the last year!

You mean I CAN'T charter a plane to bring everything I've ever painted in my life to enter?!!!! *purple text of sarcasm*
I drove, so bringing everything I have ever painted was in the realm of possible.
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/1/2016 at 12:44 PM, Mr Melons said:

 

On 11/1/2016 at 10:59 AM, Heisler said:

I would suggest always bring at least two entries (although that is tough in some categories) but please, please don't bring everything you have painted in the last year!

You mean I CAN'T charter a plane to bring everything I've ever painted in my life to enter?!!!! *purple text of sarcasm*

 

 

Yes you can! (despite purple text of sarcasm)

Just don't blame me when you pull a certificate of merit when the judges decided to random choose which mini they are going to judge.

 

Really, the five most recent pieces are most likely going to show us everything we want to know about your skill level. (Serious)

 

And I would appreciate it if we could try and keep this thread on topic.

Edited by Heisler
  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For some people around here, the 5 most recent pieces could span years...

 

I'm not one of them, but...

 

More on topic, Say 1/X minis I may bring next year for a given category is... of a drastically different style than the others. Is it worth it/helpful to the judges to have that on the table? Do the other entered items impact the score of the mini being judged?

I hope that makes sense.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What he is saying is that your most current work will more than likely be your strongest.  It has always worked that way for me.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bring the extra entries!

The figure I got a silver with was not the one I expected them to judge....

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

*snip*

 

I would suggest always bring at least two entries (although that is tough in some categories) but please, please don't bring everything you have painted in the last year!

You need to qualify this with "Except Ary, who may have completed one mini in a year, two if we're lucky." :lol:

 

The chances of me bring five entries is... slim. I may be able to get two done, but of the last five minis I've painted to completion...

 

One is in ReaperBryan's office.

One broke and is irrepairable.

The last three were painted sometime in the 1990's... around 1991... ish.

 

I'm Slooooooooooow.

Edited by Kheprera
  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

More on topic, Say 1/X minis I may bring next year for a given category is... of a drastically different style than the others. Is it worth it/helpful to the judges to have that on the table? Do the other entered items impact the score of the mini being judged?

 

I hope that makes sense.

I will say, of the two pieces I brought this year, one was a fairly traditional piece that I'm very happy with: bright colors, high highlights and deep shadows, some simple freehand patterns on fabric; the transitions/blending are smooth (not incredibly so, but smooth). The other is a piece painted entirely in OSL, with very few colors and, IMO, relatively choppy transitions. I'm very happy with the second piece, but I think of it as an experiment that went well, not as a particularly high quality piece.

 

The judges chose the piece with the OSL and awarded Bronze. Rhonda was kind enough to discuss the choice, and said both were well-executed, but the OSL was a more difficult technique which the judges felt pointed to my skill better than the more "usual" mini, despite some of the rougher aspects of the overall paint job.

 

So, what I took from this was: A) bring multiple entries. And B) bring entries that show you are stretching a bit.

  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For some people around here, the 5 most recent pieces could span years...

 

I'm not one of them, but...

 

More on topic, Say 1/X minis I may bring next year for a given category is... of a drastically different style than the others. Is it worth it/helpful to the judges to have that on the table? Do the other entered items impact the score of the mini being judged?

 

I hope that makes sense.

 

Once a mini is picked to be judged then the other entries have no impact. There may be a lively discussion on which piece can be rated the highest but once the decision is made the judging is focused on the entry selected.

 

As far as style being drastically different one will till stand out to the judges as your strongest piece or the one they feel they can score the highest. When we were doing trophy judging for Genghis Con a friend of mine entered every category (there were at least 8) and each mini was painted in an entirely different "style". He came close to sweeping the whole show and won best of show. The judges at the time had no idea that he painted almost all of the winning entries because his "style" was drastically different from one category to the next it was his challenge to himself that year.

 

I can usually recognize the entries of most of the major painters that have attended ReaperCon. In the early days of trophy judging and anonymous entries I ticked off some of the painters in the master class as I went down the row and identified each painter (there were 16 entries I got two wrong, both of whom were painters I wasn't terribly familiar with yet).

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Content

    • By Heisler
      This is the fourth, and last, in a series of four posts each concentrating on a different entry category. You can find information about the scoring system itself in the Painter Division post. From here forward I will just concentrate on how the component guidelines apply to the other three divisions.
       
      Armor/Ordnance Division
      At MMSI in Chicago and elsewhere around the globe this category is usually filled with armor, planes, artillery and the like. At the MSP Open it is more along the lines of the red-headed stepchild. This division shares a lot with the Open Division with workmanship and creativity being big components of the scoring. While many entrants are willing to spend hours pouring over a single miniature and eradicating mold lines and filling gaps, they seem to be loath to do that with an entry into the armor/ordnance category. Just like the other divisions preparation is key, a visible mold line or a seam is likely to drop you a whole medal category in the judging. Since many of the entries are from plastic and resin kits visible seams are usually the biggest problem I see as a judge, following that would be mold lines in difficult to reach places. At the 2018 MSP Open there were a lot of larger Games Workshop pieces. Almost everyone single of these had visible mold lines in the hoses and seams in the armor panels on the back of the legs. This dropped everyone of these entries a medal level. Decals are often used in this division and there is nothing wrong with using them. You will get marked down for poor application though, treat a decal like freehand and don’t just slop it into place. There is a right way and a wrong way to apply decals and it can be a bit of an art to the proper application.
      Again, if you have just a single entry then the judges can just go ahead and score your entry, no discussion is necessary. If you have multiple entries, then there will be a discussion between the judges on which entry they want to score. That conversation is typically the only conversation although these discussions tend to be longer than they might be in the Painter Division. However, when selecting the scoring entry the conversation is still based on “I can score this one higher than the others” or words to that affect, till they come to a decision just as it would be for the Painter Division. If multiple entries are visually very thematic the judges may decide to judge them together as a single entry.
       
      Let’s take a quick look at the scoring guidelines the judges use (which is published as part of the MSP Open rules. These are guidelines are subject to change.
      Difficulty: 15%
      Creativity: 5% (proposing to change to 10%)
      Workmanship: 15% (proposing to change to 30%)
      Painting Skill: 60% (proposing to change to 35%)
      Presentation: 5% (proposing to change to 10%)
       
      Difficulty: This and the Open Division are the places where difficulty does have a significant impact. The difficulty of assembling some of the kits available on the market can vary widely from manufacturer to manufacturer. Especially when dealing with a plastic kit like those produced by Tamiya and Games Workshop to the five piece resin game oriented kits put out by other manufacturers.
       
      Creativity: There is not a lot of creativity involved with a straight up kit build, but when someone goes to the extra lengths to “upgrade” their kits with after market or hand made parts that impacts the creativity component. This is the equivalent of a conversion in the other divisions.
       
      Workmanship: This is really a key component for this division and the proposed change reflects that. Any type of non-painting effort is represented here. This is includes your ability to do conversions and/or scratch sculpt or at least be able to blend your entry in with the scene you have constructed. A missed mold line, poor assembly or a poorly executed conversion could easily drop you a while numeric value in the scoring.
       
      Painting Skill: Everything that was said about painting still applies in the Diorama Division but there is less emphasis. At this point workmanship and creativity components exceed the painting component (as currently proposed). There are a few other mediums that are often used in this category, like weathering powders, the application of those mediums falls into the painting component. While we don’t expect your abilities to be exactly equal in those areas you cannot count on your ability to paint alone to carry you over the top.
       
      Presentation: While not the most important component in the Armor/Ordnance Division it is another example of getting the little things right. A nice, well executed base will set the “scene” for your entry. It can be the simple or it can be more elaborate. I would save the effort on a really elaborate base for an entry in the Open or Diorama divisions. This component is one that a judge will often use when making that final decision between scores, a tie breaker as it were.
    • By Heisler
      This is the third in a series of four posts each concentrating on a different entry category. You can find information about the scoring system itself in the Painter Division post. From here forward I will just concentrate on how the component guidelines apply to the other three divisions
       
      Diorama Division
      The Diorama Division does not exist in the MMSI structure. At MMSI a diorama goes into the Open Division as it encompasses the same set of skills. I, however, felt the Open Division ignored or down played the story and what is a diorama without a story?  This is the division that lets you show off the same skills that the Open Division does and wrap it around a story. Again if you have just a single entry then the judges can just go ahead and score your entry, no discussion is necessary. If you have multiple entries, then there will be a discussion between the judges on which entry they want to score. That conversation is typically the only conversation although these discussions tend to be longer than they might be in the Painter Division.  However, when selecting the scoring entry the conversation is still based on “I can score this one higher than the others” or words to that affect, till they come to a decision just as it would be for the Painter Division. 
       
      Let’s take a quick look at the scoring guidelines the judges use (which is published as part of the MSP Open rules. One cautionary note’ these particular scoring guidelines may change slightly):
      Difficulty: 10%
      Creativity: 20%
      Workmanship: 15%
      Painting Skill: 30%
      Presentation: 25%
       
      What does this mean for the Diorama Division? In this division we are really want to see all your hobby skills as well as your story telling ability. While the components remain the same the emphasis has obviously changed a great deal.
       
      Difficulty: This is a tough one for the Diorama category, since most dioramas are difficult to begin with. We reduced the emphasis here because we feel that you should not take a hit for a good story that is comparatively simple to tell.  
       
      Creativity: Creativity steps up a bit here.  While painting is still factor this is the portion that shows us the story you are telling. Now painting is combined with your ability to convert, sculpt and tell a story to your audience. The entrant’s imagination comes into play here, you are looking to tell a story to your viewers. You are striving for the audience to understand your story without commentary from you. It can be subtle or in your face but if you have to explain it then you have not succeeded.
       
      Workmanship: This remains a pretty straightforward component but in the Diorama Division there is a higher emphasis on it. It reflects how well constructed the entire piece is. Any type of non-painting effort is represented here. This is includes your ability to do conversions and/or scratch sculpt or at least be able to blend your miniatures in with the scene you have constructed. A missed mold line, poor assembly or a poorly executed conversion could easily drop you a while numeric value in the scoring.
       
      Painting Skill: Everything that was said about painting still applies in the Diorama Division but there is less emphasis. At this point workmanship and creativity components exceed the painting component. While we don’t expect your abilities to be exactly equal in those areas you cannot count on your ability to paint alone to carry you over the top.
       
      Presentation:  There is more emphasis on the is component as well. You are building the entire entry, essentially from scratch, and the presentation of everything you do affects the story. From the miniatures to the setting, this is where it all comes together. How you present it can be the difference between gold and silver.
    • By Heisler
      This is the second in a series of four posts each concentrating on a different entry category. You can find information about the scoring system itself in the Painter Division post. From here forward I will just concentrate on how the component guidelines apply to the other three divisions.
       
      Open Division
      The Open Division is far more of a freeform division than the Painter Division. Here is where you get to really strut your stuff with major conversions and scratch sculpts. If you have just a single entry then the judges can just go ahead and score your entry, no discussion is necessary. If you have multiple entries, then there will be a discussion between the judges on which entry they want to score. That conversation is typically the only conversation although these discussions tend to be longer than they might be in the Painter Division.  However, when selecting the scoring entry the conversation is still based on “I can score this one higher than the others” or words to that affect, till they come to a decision just as it would be for the Painter Division. If multiple entries are visually very thematic the judges may decide to judge them together as a single entry.
       
      Let’s take a quick look at the scoring guidelines the judges use (which is published as part of the MSP Open rules):
      Difficulty: 15%
      Creativity: 10%
      Workmanship: 30%
      Painting Skill: 30%
      Presentation: 15%
       
      What does this mean for the Open Division? In this division we are really want to see all your skills. While the components remain the same the emphasis has obviously changed a great deal.
       
      Difficulty: This is far more intuitive than it is in the Painter Division. The level of difficulty depends entirely on the difficulty of the conversion, with a minor conversion being the least difficult with graduations on up from there with a complete scratch sculpt being the most difficult.
       
      Creativity: Creativity stays about the same as it does for Painter. Painting is still a factor here. Now painting is combined with your ability to convert and sculpt to reach your audience. The entrant’s imagination comes into play here, you are looking for impact on the audience. Are you straining the boundaries of believability or are you trying to evoke a specific emotion from your viewers? Have you achieved what you set out to do at the end?
       
      Workmanship: This remains a pretty straightforward component but in the Open Division there is a higher emphasis on it. It reflects how well constructed the entire piece is. Any type of non-painting effort is represented here. Again a well done conversion means that the judge can’t tell that anything has been converted. A scratch sculpt should be properly proportioned and well sculpted (no thumb prints!). A missed mold line, poor assembly or a poorly executed conversion could easily drop you a while numeric value in the scoring. This is a category that we really encourage documentation, show us what you did and how you did it.
       
      Painting Skill: Everything that was said about painting still applies in the Open Division but there is less emphasis. At this point workmanship and painting are equal. While we don’t expect your abilities to be exactly equal in both areas you cannot count on your ability to paint alone to carry you over the top.
       
      Presentation:  There is more emphasis on the is component as well. If you are building the entire entry, essentially from scratch then the presentation of your entry is going to have a significant impact on how a viewer perceives your entry. Bring your entry to life!
    • By Heisler
      Breaking out the scoring or How your models are judged at the Reaper Con MSP Open
       
      This will be a series of four posts each concentrating on a different entry category. These scoring “rules” are based on the MMSI painting competition in Chicago and variants of this system are used on an international basis. Michael Proctor and I took a good hard look at the rules a number of years ago and introduced a few tweaks to the system to better represent what we, as judges, are looking for when scoring your entry at Reaper Con. The basis for all of these is still the MMSI rules and there is not a whole lot of difference between the emphasis of the components in each division. One thing to keep in mind is that manufacturer awards do not necessarily use the MSP Open system. Those winners are, typically, chosen by the manufacturer (including Reaper for the Sophies) or their representative on site using their own criteria.
       
      The scoring is quite simple. A judge assigns an entry one of five numerical values based on their opinion of what the entrant has earned for their entry:
       
      0 – no award
      1 – Certificate of Merit
      2 – Bronze Medal
      3 – Silver Medal
      4 – Gold Medal
       
      The Reaper Con judging teams are made up of three judges (There are options to use 4 or 5 judges but regardless of how many judges are used only three scores are tallied). Each judge assigns one of these 5 values to each miniature assigned to their team. The three scores are tallied which gets a value somewhere between 0 and 12. That final tally gives a number that tells the team what award to give to the entrant for that entry. Judging is typically not done by committee, each judge assigns the score they feel the piece deserves and moves on to the next. Most discussion takes place around which piece to score when there are multiple entries. Judges do consult with each other when they have difficulty assigning a score to an entry.
       
      0 – 1 No Award
      2 – 4 Certificate of Merit
      5 – 7 Bronze Medal
      8 – 10 Silver Medal
      11 – 12 Gold Medal
       
      That’s the basics, now let’s take a look at how a judge uses the five components to decide what score they are going to give you.
       
      Painter Division
      The Painter Division is for stock models, those that come straight from the package or are assembled as shown by the manufacturer (it can include minor conversions). The Painter Division is the largest category at the MSP Open, often encompassing hundreds of entries at each show. There is no limit to the number of entries that an individual can enter in this category. I personally would limit yourself to your three best, but if you intend to be considered for other manufacturer or theme awards then it would not be out of place to see six or more entries from an individual.
      If you have just a single entry then the judges can just go ahead and score your entry, no discussion is necessary. If you have multiple entries, then there will be a discussion between the judges on which entry they want to score. That conversation is typically the only conversation that needs to occur for any given entrant. When selecting the scoring entry the conversation is based on “I can score this one higher than the others” or words to that affect, till they come to a decision which is usually pretty quickly done. If the entries are visually very thematic the judges may decide to judge them together as a single entry.
       
      Let’s take a quick look at the scoring guidelines the judges use (which is published as part of the MSP Open rules):
      Difficulty: 5%
      Creativity: 10%
      Workmanship: 10%
      Painting Skill: 70%
      Presentation: 5%
       
      What does that really mean? In a nutshell we want to see how well you can paint! Did you really execute the different techniques to the best of your ability? Hence why painting skill is the predominant component that a judge is going to look at. Let’s look at a breakdown of those components and how they relate to a miniature in the Painters Division.
       
      Difficulty: This is definitely not an intuitive concept in the Painter Division. The judge is not looking at the techniques (including freehand) you used on the miniature. They are looking at how difficult is the miniature itself to paint. While how difficult a miniature is also subjective, subtle shading on flat or nearly flat surfaces are much more difficult to pull off than shading on a surface with more surface texture. Often difficulty is going to come into play when a judge is on the fence between two scores.
       
      Creativity: This component looks at use of color, color schemes and the use of freehand designs in other words things that aren’t part of the sculpt itself. This is also where painted effects first come into play, like OSL (Object Source Lighting). This is the component that really addresses your freedom of expression on your entry and how well you bring that across to the audience.
       
      Workmanship: This is a pretty straightforward component. It reflects how well you prepared your model for painting. Any type of non-painting effort is represented here. In the Painter division this includes finding the elusive mold line and eliminating it but it also includes assembling a multi piece miniatures or executing minor conversions. A well done conversion or well assembled miniature means that the judge can’t tell that anything has been converted or that it had multiple pieces. A missed mold line, poor assembly or a poorly executed conversion could easily drop you a while numeric value in the scoring.
       
      Painting Skill: This is the whole key to the Painter Division entry, how well you apply paint to the miniature. These is where you are evaluated on the techniques you used how well you executed them. Tying everything together is really important as well. Everything you do must come together as a whole composition. It is an area where judges need to be aware of everything that is going on and how it is fitting together. While this is the predominate component of the Painter Division it is also the most subjective.
      Judges must overcome their prejudices about which techniques they prefer. As an example there is nothing wrong with drybrushing as long as you executed it properly regardless of how the judge feels about that technique.
      Here is an example of how a judge needs to be aware of many different styles and techniques. Blending doesn’t always have to be a smooth transition from light to dark, there are multiple different types of blending, it is how well you executed the technique or style you opted for. Do you blend like Jen Haley or like Alfonso “Banshee” Giraldes? They both achieve marvelous blends but their techniques are markedly different in achieving those blends.
       
      Presentation: While not the most important component in the Painter Division it is another example of getting the little things right. A nice, well executed base will set the “scene” for your miniature. It can be the simple base that the miniature came on or with or it can be more elaborate, although I would save the effort on a really elaborate base for a miniature going into the Open or Diorama divisions. This component is another that one that a judge will often use when making that final decision between scores, a tie breaker as it were.
       
      If you made it through that wall of text, congratulations! Hopefully that helped explain away some of the magic behind the scoring in the Painter Division.
       
       
       
  • Who's Online   23 Members, 4 Anonymous, 0 Guests (See full list)

×