Jump to content
TGP

Getting to Know Each Other = July Edition

Recommended Posts

7 hours ago, TGP said:

Question for July 15: Does Warmachine count as Science Fiction?

Warmachine seems to be more magitech than steampunk, so I don't count as science fiction.

 

4 hours ago, TGP said:

...for July 15: Does all Steam Punk count as a subset of Science Fiction?

I consider steampunk to be a subset of fantasy rather than science fiction.

 

But I'm not sure why.  I've been trying to answer the question "Why are steampunk or magitech fantasy rather than sci-fi?", and, more generally, "What separates fantasy from science fiction?"  The only rational answer I've come up with so far is "science or technology beyond our current capabilities is an essential element of science fiction."  (Which itself raises interesting questions, e.g. "Has the progress of science and technology caused works previously classified as science fiction to be reclassified as fantasy or speculative fiction?")

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Grayfax said:

 

My biggest gripe with that universe isn't the science aspect, it is the fiction aspect.  There seems to be very little information behind it... unless there is a bunch in the rulebook (but I doubt it).  Compared to some other companies that produce lines of figures where you can tell there is a lot of story and background behind the figures... this seems to be lacking from this company and is probably one of the chief reasons I do not own any of them.

 

Historically, their source books did contain a fair amount of fiction/story/background/fluff/whathaveyou in them.  However, with the advent of their latest edition, they have gone away from including the fiction in their source books, and now are going away from source books altogether. There are also a fair number of novels, novellas, and short story collections that have been published over the years, but nowhere on the scale of Warhammer.  I think their greatest problem in that area is that their publisher, Skull Island Expeditions, generally isn't carried in book stores from what I can see and so you have to either get the electronic versions, or order the physical books online. As for the quality of said books/fiction, that is of course subjective but based on both personal experience and talking to other fans, their books tend to be a bit hit or miss. Additionally, you can also usually find a decent amount of fiction in their magazine No Quarter (which is becoming No Quarter Prime I belive).

 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, TGP said:

...for July 15: Does Warmachine count as Fantasy rather than pure Steam Punk?

 

...for July 15: Does all Steam Punk count as a subset of Science Fiction?

 

 

 

The little bit I've read about Warmachine leaves me thinking it is in no way Steampunk. I could be glaringly wrong about that, though, because the universe didn't hold my attention for very long. Anyway, I believe magic and fantasy are bigger themes than ingenuity and a "Manifest Destiny" ideal within the Warmachine/Hordes setting(s).

 

I would say some Steampunk is a subset of Science Fiction. That can't be said for all of the genre(s) because there's always an outlier somewhere. How many varieties of Steampunk are there now? Of course, I'm using Steampunk as an umbrella term for the stereotypical Victorian-era romp with mechanical technology based on outdated science. I would say that, yes, most of the subtypes found in the genre count as Science Fiction. That they're based on older thoughts about how the universe works makes no difference.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, TGP said:

...for July 15: Does Warmachine count as Fantasy rather than pure Steam Punk?

 

...for July 15: Does all Steam Punk count as a subset of Science Fiction?

Way too much magic in Warmachine for me to think of it as pure Steam Punk. I think magitek is the appropriate term for it. It gives rise to very interesting speculative technology, but still more fantasy than science.

 

And I do usually consider Steam Punk to be "pre-20th century technology" science fiction. Be it coal powered steam or clockworks as the epitome of reasonable science, and anything making electricity (i.e. Tesla coils) as the upper limit of the genre.

Edited by Cranky Dog
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I tend to think of Warmahordes as "You got Magic in my Steampunk, no, you got your Steampunk in my Fantasy." In short: Magitech. Hey, whatever sells miniatures.

I do tend to think of "steampunk" as "science fiction," in that I tend to think of "alternative history" as "science fiction." Sterling and Gibson's The Difference Engine, about a computer revolution at the same time as the Steam Era, due to Babbage's computer work getting funding from Parliament? That's both SF and AH, and to some extent, steampunk. The graphic novel Scarlet Traces, about how H.G. Wells' Martian invasion of 1890 provided Britain with Martian tech and cemented the Victorian Colonialism? Steampunk, in its purest form.

Stuff like Space 1889, on the other hand, with aether flyers and aeronefs that were possible using an obsolete scientific paradigm? That, I tend to think of as falling more into Magitech. As well as ANY setting that openly incorporates magic.

Edited by Dr.Bedlam
  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, Dr.Bedlam said:

Stuff like Space 1889, on the other hand, with aether flyers and aeronefs that were possible using an obsolete scientific paradigm? That, I tend to think of as falling more into Magitech. As well as ANY setting that openly incorporates magic.

 

Fair enough, though as noted, I draw the lines differently. For me, nearly any handwave at a scientish explanation pushes things over the line into SF. Mostly this is because without that, almost everything breaks down on our current understanding of natural laws. 

 

The rocket equation is a cold, cold mistress. And so is the speed of light. Anything that takes both of those seriously without handwaves at "warp drives", "wormhole jumps", inexpensive orbital shuttles, whatever, is certainly SF, but it's only a tiny percentage of what's being written. And much of it really isn't very good because the overlap between people who understand those things, people who can write, and people who can write an interesting story where those things are adhered to carefully is so small. But I understand where you're coming from.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Sergeant_Crunch said:

Ok, so mass painting didn't happen but I did finish the test figure for all the Space Marines I just finished assembling. I haven't sealed it yet nor have I decided on how I want to do the base.  Here it is though in it's almost finished state.

 

20170717_003201.jpg

Crimson fists, huh? Looks good.:winkthumbs:

 

15 hours ago, TGP said:

Question for July 15: Does Warmachine count as Science Fiction?

I have no idea, but some of the figures for the game are pretty cool.

 

12 hours ago, TGP said:

That would (or might) be a more General form of the question. So related questions:

 

...for July 15: Does Warmachine count as Fantasy rather than pure Steam Punk?

 

...for July 15: Does all Steam Punk count as a subset of Science Fiction?

 

 

Definitely.....

No...

Maybe....

 

CHICKEN!

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Chaoswolf said:

Crimson fists, huh? Looks good.:winkthumbs:

Yeah, I've always liked their color scheme since the first book cover.  Don't know why I didn't go with them during my first involvement in the game.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Doug Sundseth said:

 

Fair enough, though as noted, I draw the lines differently. For me, nearly any handwave at a scientish explanation pushes things over the line into SF. Mostly this is because without that, almost everything breaks down on our current understanding of natural laws. 

 

The rocket equation is a cold, cold mistress. And so is the speed of light. Anything that takes both of those seriously without handwaves at "warp drives", "wormhole jumps", inexpensive orbital shuttles, whatever, is certainly SF, but it's only a tiny percentage of what's being written. And much of it really isn't very good because the overlap between people who understand those things, people who can write, and people who can write an interesting story where those things are adhered to carefully is so small. But I understand where you're coming from.

 

I should also have mentioned that the line can be sorta fuzzy at times.

Aether flyers were considered possible at one point, so a story about them would have been science fiction... until it became fantasy; the luminiferous aether ain't a thang.

FTL travel is currently considered theoretically possible; some forms (warp drive through normal space) isn't looking as good as it once did, but others (the use of Planck's Constant to exit normal space in favor of some other space) ain't debunked yet. So perhaps the phrase "speculative fiction" is a better term. As opposed to "hard science fiction" and "soft science fiction."

Amusingly enough, I'd call WH40K "science fiction," despite its plethora of space elves, space orks, and traveling through space hell in order to get from one planet to the next. Hell, I'm still trying to figure out how space hulks hold atmosphere...

 

Matter of opinion, really; among my few hard and fast rules is "If someone waves his hand and makes magic stuff happen, it's FANTASY, durnit." Which means Star Wars is fantasy; it ain't ESP or techology, it's the Force and the Midichlorians, durnit, which makes the whole show about space wizards from the future past, no matter how many spaceships, planets, and zapulator guns you insert.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, TGP said:

...for July 15: Does Warmachine count as Fantasy rather than pure Steam Punk?

I think, No. 

 

23 hours ago, TGP said:

...for July 15: Does all Steam Punk count as a subset of Science Fiction?

Usually.

 

On 7/17/2017 at 3:44 AM, TGP said:

Question for July 15: Does Warmachine count as Science Fiction?

The game no; some of the clanky robots, sure, why not?

 

It was interesting to see where everyone landed trying to parse genres. Thanks for an excellent question @Gargs  

 

I think Warmachine & Hordes intentionally tried to be steampunk & fantasy & alternate reality all at once — and thus unclassifiable.  And; all credit to Privateer Press for achieving that. 

 

::: wanders off to consult the list of questions :::

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Question for July 18: Is gameverse "fluff" important to you, an irrelevancy, or does it annoy and irritate?

 

(If the answer varies by game do elaborate...)

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, TGP said:

Question for July 18: Is gameverse "fluff" important to you, an irrelevancy, or does it annoy and irritate?

 

(If the answer varies by game do elaborate...)

If it's immersive yes. If the fluff sucks I tend to ignore it.  Most of the rules I have didn't come with fluff.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Define "Fluff"

Verse fiction: depends on how good it is. But it is never important to the game.

Background to the verse: Yes it helps understand the background.

Art: No, it is generally bad art and does nothing for the game.  (sorry to those that enjoy/create the art, but more than 90% of it is bad beating the odds of normal)  (takes off my curmudgeon cap)

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is very important to me. I hate it when GM's just hand wave the details. That being said, if something need to be changed from canon to better fit the DM's view, by all means have at it.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, TGP said:

Question for July 18: Is gameverse "fluff" important to you, an irrelevancy, or does it annoy and irritate?

 

(If the answer varies by game do elaborate...)

 

I both treasure and ignore the fluff.  When I was actively playing, our campaigns were mostly homebrew, so the rule specific fluff was ignored in favor of the campaign specific. 

 

However, I always read and loved most of the game specific fluff (both text and art words) because it sets the feel for the game and spurs the imagination. 

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Content

    • By Aryanun
      *BONK!* is here to answer your questions and give badmost excellent advice.
       

       
      Disclaimer: Not responsible for incidents, accidents, disability, dismemberments, bite marks, lumps on heads, death, random bits of cat fur or mummy wrappings, or monetary loss for following the advice of a mummified cat plush toy.
    • By TGP
      Greetings forum things! Once again, I, the Griffin of Grumpiness snag the tattered robe of the Quisitor in my beak for this the ninth month of Old Rome's calendar and also the month all Turkeys Dread!
       
      Question for Thursday, Nov 1st:
      Halloween is behind us, how long will you tolerate the decorations thereof?
       
      When do yours (if you had some) get stowed away for next year?
    • By Ludo
      I made a SNAFU and double booked myself for the Paint by Die Roll. The great kaiju has used his powers of internet and corrected it. However the Friday event had to be canceled. My apologies to everyone who was so kind to preregister. We have scheduled 2 new Paint by Die Roll events, One Thursday and one Saturday. We also added Survival Speed Paints after dinner every night. They are on the schedule and can be reserved. Again my apologies for messing up people's schedules!
       
      ~Ludo
    • By TGP
      Step 0 
       

      Penny ^ ...New model in blister. ^
       
      This guy is big enough to take up the footprint of four infantry skeletons. The penny is 19mm diameter. The plan is to give the figure a 40mm square, equivalent to four 20x20 bases arranged in a square.
       
      He will count as four members of the unit he'll be assigned to. 
  • Who's Online   19 Members, 1 Anonymous, 0 Guests (See full list)

×