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Humansquish

Terrible Army Builds

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So Looter and I got to discussing things last week after our game and the discussion led to making armies that are bad. Basically build a list you would never normally run with models you would never run. For example, the Darkspawn Isiri Warriors have nothing going for them, not even a low price tag. How would an army full of them run?

 

I've made several lists and will post them after our game tomorrow. Surprisingly this is actually harder than you think, but I do have one list that I think is just a total stinker. Please post your lists here of the worst armies you can think of.

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I am looking foreward to this.  Cleverness disguised as awefulness.  I have made several myself and to be honest there are some that I was like "Oh yeah this will not be any good at all,"  95 models later..... "Uh this is probably a little too good to run.  How does that happen?

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... :huh:   I like the Isiri...

 

'O course, I paint minis for looks, not for capabilities. :blush:  

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I like this idea. Sometimes terrible in the right situation can be amazing.

 

Sun Tzu mentioned it in The Art of War. At the very least it will throw off your opponent

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Well the two of us and another friend had a three army death match and it was actually pretty fun.   I had the most models with an all archer soldier army, while both Humansquish and David ran reptus armies designed to close and savage their opponents, we all spread out about half our armies to fight one or another of the opponents,  all of us had an albatross amulet, at the end in a hard fought match Humansquish was Victorious.  His snakes closed fast even taking losses at range and destroyed all that stood before them before dying in mutual slaughter from defensive strikes once the majority of the damage had been done his single squad of spikeshell warriors clubbed down the last remains of my force like they were baby seals.  

 

Winner of the worst army match round 1:  Reptus by David.   powered by the lackluster Nagendra Ranger.  Several troops of this while quite devastating in short spurts they had no staying power with only 1 track.  David ran his force quite well to be honest but out of 6 killed goblin skeeters 5 rolled 8+ to retaliate and kill his raiders in one turn.  3 more were killed by ranged fire the next activation and that unit was reduced to just its captain which lasted quite a bit longer than I thought it would.  Humansquish lost his set of Nagendra in a similar fashion while similarly destroying the goblins arrayed against him and a small troop of them left from destroying Davids northern force to pounce on the few Gnoll archers left while chasing down Greka, and eventually the spikeshells, killed the gnolls and Dantral to win the battle over all but show that David is the real champ of the First Terrible army build battle.

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Sorry for the late response, it's been a busy few weeks. I messed up on my terrible army build, I didn't notice the dodge/2 on the Nagendra warriors, if I had I wouldn't have brought them. David ran a full army of Nagendra Rangers, and that is a really bad army. I didn't because I wanted more variety.

 

Somchai

Tasanee

Nagendra Ranger x8

 

Ssathuss

Nagendra Warrior x4

 

Klahan

 

Ssathuss

Spikeshell Warriors x6

 

Ssathuss

Nagendra Ranger x3

Nagendra Warrios x3

 

Albatross Amulet

 

The week after we ran those I ran my terrible Darkspawn army, and confirmed that the Isiri warriors are terrible. I like the sculpt, but the stats are just bad. Aundine and Nasithe turned out better than I thought.

 

Rahl

Nasithe x2

Isiri Warrior x10

 

Aundine

 

Javolith

Nasithe

Isiri Warrios x10

 

Spawn of Mashaf x6

 

Demon Imp x4

 

Albatross Amulet

 

This week we ran one of my lists that was supposed to be terrible but ended up looking intersting against a fairly generalist army Looter built. We were able to see the strengths of the various models, but you don't build a list like this. Also, Ian is a terrible mage, don't run him.

 

Broderick

Mace of Righteousness

Ian

Battle Nun x4

Hospitalier x4

 

Sister Majeda

Holy Armor

Battle Nun x4

Hospitalier x4

 

Celestial Lion

 

Acacia

Ivy Crown Archer x6

 

Gar

Wardogs x5

 

Totem of Battle

 

Albatross Amulet

 

 

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A couple to provide healing to the right units and they are well worth their points. 8 in an army as part of the fighting force? Not good at all. You need to use them for what they were designed to do, which I didn't.

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There are no terrible models, only terrible builds, and terrible tactics.

 

Nagendra Rangers are glass cannons; when used with the Outcast Doctrine, they can move 23" and attack once with Poison before your enemy can blink (while only suffering a single defensive strike against DV11). If placed in Po's troop, any Poison tokens are resolved immediately; this is likely to kill most 2-track soldier models instantly. Then anything the opponent sends against it is looking at 3 defensive strikes, and another Poison token resolving instantly. They are also very effective when they can base 2 opponents at a time and split the attacks; death is almost a lock for the Ranger, but you have the strong chance to take out two models for the loss of one. Nagendra Rangers can kill 50% more than their point value without breaking a sweat, when used properly.

 

A whole army of them? Horrible idea.

 

~v

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I don't know if I can agree wholly with you Shakandara.  I want to like them but they seem to me to be intentionally weak to counterbalance many of the exceedingly capable units that make up a good portion of a reptus force.

 

1. To get the abilities you speak of you have to spend 128 pts and use a specific warlord that is inferior to the other two warlords by a good amount.  And Use a specific Faction Doctrine.  Which seems to be a very hard start to use a 1 track unit that does not even have the ability to hang around longer with tough, damage reduction, or displaced. 

2.1 attack in return is still quite likely to kill them and there are a lot of units with pike and first strike that could kill these instantly without anything else special to add.  In fact Reptus has a unit in the same price range that has first strike for about the same points and a pike unit that is less than half the points, the poison ability is also not useful against units with construct or undead SA's.

3. I am not sure Po gives the same ability of instant poison on defensive strikes. The ability mentions Attack, which I think removes it from defensive actions.  This term I would think would mainly be used to let a unit use the ability with ranged attacks as well.

4. The rather average Mav of 4 on these units hurts their OSK ability and in many cases may require a trade of 1 Nagendra for 2 less expensive units to get an even trade on just points which reduces the above Rush attack scenario to a potentially losing trade.

 

All is not lost though, the number of units that have provoke, bludgeon, and disable can make these a very good integral part of a force as long as you hold them back and protect them well.  Nothing says lame like an archer killing one early in the game.

 

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On 8/27/2017 at 10:07 PM, Shakandara said:

There are no terrible models,

 

~v

 

Hey Vince, thanks for responding. I do kinda like the Rangers, but a whole army of them was really bad. But that was part of the fun for this experiment. I think in my post above I mentioned that just the Isiri Warriors were terrible models. What is your take on their effective use? After running an army of them I can only think of using them as spell point fodder/speed bums for the Witch Queen, but even then they are kinda expensive for that.

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I had a thought for a Timberthil army I'm not sure if it would be good or bad explicitly, but I do think that it would be funny

 

Troop 1 (88 pts)
Ilmarin Woodstride
Faun x 3

 

Troops 2 Through 15 (64 pts)

Tanwylen, Satyr
Faun x 4

 

Through an explotation of the forest doctrine that gets me 15 extra pieces of heavy forest terrain that let me teleport around the board that I can move through with no difficulty.

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On 9/1/2017 at 8:01 AM, Looter said:

1. To get the abilities you speak of you have to spend 128 pts and use a specific warlord that is inferior to the other two warlords by a good amount.  And Use a specific Faction Doctrine.  Which seems to be a very hard start to use a 1 track unit that does not even have the ability to hang around longer with tough, damage reduction, or displaced. 

2.1 attack in return is still quite likely to kill them and there are a lot of units with pike and first strike that could kill these instantly without anything else special to add.  In fact Reptus has a unit in the same price range that has first strike for about the same points and a pike unit that is less than half the points, the poison ability is also not useful against units with construct or undead SA's.

3. I am not sure Po gives the same ability of instant poison on defensive strikes. The ability mentions Attack, which I think removes it from defensive actions.  This term I would think would mainly be used to let a unit use the ability with ranged attacks as well.

4. The rather average Mav of 4 on these units hurts their OSK ability and in many cases may require a trade of 1 Nagendra for 2 less expensive units to get an even trade on just points which reduces the above Rush attack scenario to a potentially losing trade.

 

All is not lost though, the number of units that have provoke, bludgeon, and disable can make these a very good integral part of a force as long as you hold them back and protect them well.  Nothing says lame like an archer killing one early in the game.

 

 

To your first point, Po is inferior to neither Reptus Warlord; in fact, since the change to 2nd Edition, I've not played a Reptus army without going Outcast and taking Po. I will own an opponent up and down the table with him. If there is any reason to think Po is inferior to Khong or the Broodmaster, it is only because a) the other two are melee monsters by comparison, and b) because Po is 29-81 points cheaper.

 

To your second point, trot out any example, and I can present a foil for it too. First Strike as an ability is *expensive*, and Pike is less common than you probably think (across both books, there are a total of 19 models with Pike, which is an average of 1 per faction). Just because you may be used to using/playing against models with a particular ability does not mean they are common.

 

Third, yes, Po's WL ability works on the defensive as well. We were very specific about language when rewriting the rules for second edition. There are 3 offensive combat actions: Fight, Shoot, and Spellcast. Whenever you roll to hit another model in melee, be it with a Fight action, or making Defensive Strikes, you are conducting an attack action. If Po's ability were intended to only work on offense, we would have written it as Fight, not an attack.

 

I'm not sure what you point is in number 4, but here's some quick numbers for you. The average MAV of all soldier models in WL2 (including SN, which skews it slightly higher because of the number of factions with "big" soldier models) is 3.8. So, this means Rangers are above average in that department. The average DV of soldier models in WL2 is 9.43. As far as OSK, this is pretty good odds. Outside of the Rush attack, Rangers have a #MA of 3; the average for all soldiers in WL2 is 1.8.

 

Yes, they are more expensive. Yes, they are fragile. Yes, there are plenty of foils that can be used against them. And if you are a poor enough general to throw them away in unfavorable situations, then they will play poorly. But a half dozen rangers mixed into an Outcast list with Nagendra Warriors and Spikeshells can be a whole world of hurt for your opponent.

 

~v

On 9/4/2017 at 2:38 PM, Humansquish said:

 

Hey Vince, thanks for responding. I do kinda like the Rangers, but a whole army of them was really bad. But that was part of the fun for this experiment. I think in my post above I mentioned that just the Isiri Warriors were terrible models. What is your take on their effective use? After running an army of them I can only think of using them as spell point fodder/speed bums for the Witch Queen, but even then they are kinda expensive for that.

 

Jeff,

 

Absolutely. An entire list of them (like an entire list of almost any one model) becomes too predictable, and too easy to break. A balanced army should beat them almost every time. I'll have to ponder the isiri warriors; I usually play a demon list for Darkspawn, or a hybrid with the Witch Queen and Thuusia, but  tend to rely on the demon soldiers for the summoning. I'll think about it and get back to you. ::):

 

~v

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8 hours ago, Shakandara said:

 

To your first point, Po is inferior to neither Reptus Warlord; in fact, since the change to 2nd Edition, I've not played a Reptus army without going Outcast and taking Po. I will own an opponent up and down the table with him. If there is any reason to think Po is inferior to Khong or the Broodmaster, it is only because a) the other two are melee monsters by comparison, and b) because Po is 29-81 points cheaper.

 

To your second point, trot out any example, and I can present a foil for it too. First Strike as an ability is *expensive*, and Pike is less common than you probably think (across both books, there are a total of 19 models with Pike, which is an average of 1 per faction). Just because you may be used to using/playing against models with a particular ability does not mean they are common.

 

Third, yes, Po's WL ability works on the defensive as well. We were very specific about language when rewriting the rules for second edition. There are 3 offensive combat actions: Fight, Shoot, and Spellcast. Whenever you roll to hit another model in melee, be it with a Fight action, or making Defensive Strikes, you are conducting an attack action. If Po's ability were intended to only work on offense, we would have written it as Fight, not an attack.

 

I'm not sure what you point is in number 4, but here's some quick numbers for you. The average MAV of all soldier models in WL2 (including SN, which skews it slightly higher because of the number of factions with "big" soldier models) is 3.8. So, this means Rangers are above average in that department. The average DV of soldier models in WL2 is 9.43. As far as OSK, this is pretty good odds. Outside of the Rush attack, Rangers have a #MA of 3; the average for all soldiers in WL2 is 1.8.

 

Yes, they are more expensive. Yes, they are fragile. Yes, there are plenty of foils that can be used against them. And if you are a poor enough general to throw them away in unfavorable situations, then they will play poorly. But a half dozen rangers mixed into an Outcast list with Nagendra Warriors and Spikeshells can be a whole world of hurt for your opponent.

 

~v

 

 

I would just say I disagree about Po.  He is a glass cannon and an interesting spell caster but even for a normal spell caster he is fragile, while the other two are Melee monsters at the height of toughness and with features that can protect them from damage even when they are targets.  The other two are better warlords.  Even to get the most out of His warlord ability you will need to have more fragile units in concert with him to use the poison function.  I also do not like his lists too much, even the special reptus Affliction spell is just magic blowthrough but you have to roll against the often much higher MD value.  He is not a bad unit, just not as devastating as the other two can be.  Maybe if he had another list this would be different.

 

There are only 19 pike units true, but there are 42 first strike units, and 6 quick strike units. This is 67 units out of 634.  More than 10% of all units can kill these literally before they can do anything at all.  This is actually a pretty common ability.  Plus doing the calculations per DT Pike on soldier units costs 13.43 per track, First Strike 18.27, and Quick Strike is 11.75 for the 2 soldier units that have it.  This is not as expensive as the Nagendra themselves are.  

 

I will take your word on that since I am completely unfamiliar with the running of the figure myself you are actually the first person that has stated its use to me.  This does raise him slightly on the scale of warlords.

 

 Your average numbers for Mav includes the 34 Soldier Ranged units and the near universally pitiful MAV they have.  If you use just the MAV from Melee units, the Actual MAV average is 4.12, Which is actually raised by 1 soldier unit with range, the icingstead spearmen.   The average DV of all soldiers including dodge is still only 9.55 though which functionally means they are perfectly average on MAV.  Their DV with Dodge runs from Average 10 to 12 for the Warriors which is average to above average that is nice but they are still around average cost but on a DT basis they are at twice the 14.74 pt average per damage track per figure, which with the figures from above means Pike, and QuickStrike units average up to less than average and First Strike is only a little above average this adds up to is on a per point basis the use you get out of these is below average, all the skill combinations even the ones that are from other figures, and Doctrines add up to average kind of numbers for a unit with below average long term utility.

 

They are glass cannons.  They are still useable.  This does not mean they are particularly good.  If you are using Po I would say you almost have to try and use some of these things just so his WL ability does not go to waste, but other then this one type of build they have to be among the least efficient units in Warlord.   Even in the Bad unit game above even terrible goblins were killing them in job lots.  Only the spike shell warriors were still playing the last 2 turns, due nearly entirely to their DR/1.  Now I will say the AOE/2 Spitter Nagendra can be very effective.  The others are something you hold back to try and get a charge on something with before dying messily.

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