Jump to content

ced1106

Confrontation: Classic

Recommended Posts

typically, the creditors go after the money. If another company by the same owner has cash on hand, they will go after it in one fashion or another.

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, Maledrakh said:

typically, the creditors go after the money. If another company by the same owner has cash on hand, they will go after it in one fashion or another.

 

Yep.  And it's generally only the ones who can afford lawyers when it was setup and afterwards who can stave them off.  Not something that usually applies to hobby oriented companies. 

The update this morning seems to have stopped the "bleeding" - they're back up over 2k from when I checked at lunch. 

 

This little tidbit in the comments was interesting:
 

Quote

Joss is well know in Europe, especially by francophone backers. In my opinion, he is, for many gamers and backers the best guarantee this KS has. He is the asset that gives many of us confidence in this project.

 Joss is one of the guys listed as a collaborator. 

Haven't there been a couple other gaming KS disasters that had a well known and respected name attached to them? 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yep -- although the ones I've seen were game designers, not those with miniature production experience.

 

What I did find odd is that SD lists successful crowdfunded campaigns, yet did not mention Joss' experience with Alkemy (although a few backers of its campaign did not like the miniatures). If he's so "well known" in Europe, why don't they mention his experience on the KS home page? And give me more info than the words, "well known". I want to be able to search for someone's previous projects and read comments from backers or customers so I can confirm their experience!

Edited by ced1106
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I felt this comment in the KS comments section summed up the situation fairly well:

 

Quote

HaleysRedComet 33 minutes ago

So, let's think about this. I, and I believe most people here, want the return of Confrontation. CMON dropped the ball on this when they held the rights. They teased Phoenix edition through a different project and never delivered on that, and now SD holds the IP rights and plans to bring the game back via Resurrection. So far, so good, I think. We got a company who is actually doing some work to bring the brand back. Awesome.

OK, so back in early 2017 SD announces that Classic and Ressurection will be something they are working on, and at some point Classic will be a Kickstarter project. Awesome. I'm jazzed about this, I love this game and the minis and can't wait to see how SD does with it. Then... not a lot happens. As the project draws closer there is a poll for characters to be included with the pledge, actually pretty cool. Get the community involved, good idea. But then...

Mostly silence from SD. People, in general, don't get responses to questions on the FB. One thread in particular had a ton of pretty basic questions - what's the pledge structure, etc... - but the only question that was answered was someone asking for SD's Twitter account. So, we know SD is seeing these questions but ignoring them. I'm not saying I was expecting detailed answers, but a simple "Wait and see" or "This is the basic idea" would have been nice. This would be a trend that SD continues to this day - they mostly don't respond to social media inquiries.

Anyway, the KS launches and funds in 2 hours. It raises about 650K Euro. Awesome. But then... people start asking questions and looking closer at things. The minis will be PVC with ABS weapons, similar to what Wrath of Kings does. Personally, this doesn't make too much sense to me, as my metal Confrontation minis tended to have stability issues with ankles more than anything else. But, this is the project SD wants to do. So, we will have PVC and ABS. The issue of quality comes up again and again. It's answered, but because a prototype isn't shown people don't believe it. We are told to trust SD, many backers do because they've delivered on their RPG projects before. SD posts and update saying they can be trusted because they've made products before. OK.

So, we are 3 days from the end of the project and it is down to about 461K Euro right now. That's nearly 200K lost and about 66% of what it was at the height of funding. What happened? Here's where I am going to get really critical: Sans Detour barely worked on this project.

The project launched with over a year of planning able to go into it. What we saw was pictures of the old Rackham minis - the same ones used in their catalog and on the mini's cards. There's even art used in a few situations instead of miniature images. That's weird. Not a single model was ever cast by SD. They're offering a resin pledge, people thought maybe SD made some of those minis. Nope, I confirmed that they were leftover from old Rackham. SD then doubles down on this and states that they are unable to produce a mini they have made, that it is cost prohibitive. I have never seen a single miniature company using KS that has said this. So then people start asking to see how they will scan the masters into a computer, as SD stated they will do this to make molds. Nope, again. So we are left to conclude that Sans Detour has not done -any- work prior to the KS campaign to show people what they plan to produce. They said they've made calls to factories. That seems like it is enough for some people.

Then, we get into the weird grey area of how business ownership and partner companies. In an update, Sans Detour stated they would use Ludik (with whom they share an owner and address) for logistics on this project. They stated that, if Ludik were to go under, they wold simply switch to a different company. So, in a comment, it was disclosed that Ludik is now controlled by a liquidator. I don't know how this wasn't known before, it's a huge red flag. Then, we also find out that Stellar Licensing, the company who owns the IP, only owns the Confrontation IP as their single asset and is owned by the financial Director of SD. Again, kind of weird.

So - in the year leading up to this project, the only prep work done was to photoshop existing images together, make a choice of minis featured, and contact factories. That is, observably, the only work done by SD leading up to what they hoped (looking at the stretch goals) would be a million Euro+ project.

This brings us to the current situation. Sans Detour, the account, is barely involved with getting information out. Instead, Joss - the project manager - has his own account and comments, while other collaborators - who are friends of the project and not SD employees - also give official information. The collaborators get all their info from SD directly, so if they don't have the answer to a question and want to answer it, they have to ask someone. Fine so far. But - we have seen that some of the collaborators have berated and ignored people who have questions or concerns about the project. It's also apparent that there is no native English speaker who works on this project, which sometimes causes misunderstandings. It's a small issue, but for a company to launch a large project in English without a native speaker seems like a mistake.

It also came out that SD was not able to produce game play videos of the game they are pitching, which was a request frequently asked of them. I asked a collaborator about this and was told that there are only 2 players around their office and they had no time to record. I don't see how, in the year they had to prepare for this, they couldn't run through a game and take pictures or record. That doesn't add up to me, and makes me think this project wasn't taken seriously by SD from the start.

It would appear that SD thought it could put together a project for a game that hasn't been produced in about 10 years and expect that people would be willing to buy a 300 Euro box of minis without even seeing how they might look in the material they will receive them in. Next to no prep work was done, and SD seems to be happy with the fact that it passed it's goal at all despite the fact that it lost 1/3 of it's funding so far. SD plans to launch a new edition of Confrontation next year sometime. No one has seen any work that has gone into that so far, so we are left to conclude that as much effort will go into that project as went into their current one. Which is to say - not much at all.

 

  • Like 5
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

this project is less than 10 thousand euros away from dropping below it's first day funding total. 

  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Probably a good thing the campaign only has 3 days left.

 

Something I found interesting is the average pledge per person.  The Early Bird pledge was €299, but the average per person is only €191.  Shows how much people wanted the smaller sets over the large box.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Clearman said:

Something I found interesting is the average pledge per person.  The Early Bird pledge was €299, but the average per person is only €191.  Shows how much people wanted the smaller sets over the large box.

I noticed that, too - but over 900 backers are a single euro - if you take them out of the mix, the average pledge for the rest is 309.   Looks to me like there are 900 people sitting there waiting to see what happens, either before the campaign ends, or like myself, someone who wants bleacher seats to the train wreck. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That says a lot too.  Those 900  don't represent a lot of money, but they're over a third of all backers.

  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They made an update today to say "Here's what comes in each of our pledge levels."  They are being very clear about things (the 76 extra minis only come in the plastic pledge, and neither the resin nor plastic pledges will be available in the pledge manager). 

 

 

And they've lost about 18K so far today.  But I'm sure that will all turn around with the update, now that potential backers aren't confused about which pledge they might want.


I wonder if this is the normal 'ramping up' that happens at the end of a campaign, except with numbers below zero.

 

I still don't think enough people will drop to defund the whole thing- but with the drops escalating, that is in the realm of possibilities.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

they're up to 23k lost today.  Less than 2.5k until they're less than the 440k they made in the first day. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I loved the Confrontation stuff, though I never played the actual game.  My brother and I used many of their minis as stand-ins for GW stuff, especially HQ units.  I wouldn't touch this with a stranger's 10' pole...  Really hope the supporters get what they're pledging for, but more and more this feels like simply throwing money out a window would yield more good.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And when I checked it this morning, their funding total is now less than they pulled on the first day - currently 437k versus the 440k they got the first day. 

I also learned that per KS policy, you cannot decrease or cancel your pledge in the last 24 hours of a campaign IF it would cause the project to defund.   Well, you can, but you have to contact KS customer support to do it for you. 

 

I don't think they'll lose enough in pledges for that to happen though.  But who knows.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I want to back this. If Reaper was running it I probably would.

Given what they're obligating themselves to produce and the resources I know of they have to do it, I unfortunately have to pass. Maybe if it was better funded.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Club said:

I want to back this. If Reaper was running it I probably would.

Given what they're obligating themselves to produce and the resources I know of they have to do it, I unfortunately have to pass. Maybe if it was better funded.

 

 

Yeah, that's where a lot of people are.  If this were being run by a company that we all felt we could trust, the whole story would be different.

The company doesn't have a proven track record for good business decisions (in fact, one of the owners owns a hobby shop and online store that's going out of business right now).

That business going under also seems to indicate that these guys aren't independently wealthy and probably won't be able to cover costs if this kickstarter ends up in the red.

A lot of red flags.  Still, I hope they deliver, because that would be better for everyone.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Content

    • By Unruly
      First time making an opening post for one of these, so if I do it wrong I'm sorry.

      Legendary Dragons: A 5e Supplement
      https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/782735675/legendary-dragons-a-5th-edition-supplement?ref=user_menu
       
      Red dragons, black dragons, green dragons, gold dragons. They are great, but we’ve seen them before.  What makes a dragon unique among all others of its kin? What is its history, what are its motivations, and most importantly, what makes it legendary? Legendary Dragons answers all this and much, much more!
      Jetpack7 aims to bring back the mystery to Dragons and to make an "ordinary" Dragon encounter... extraordinary!
      12 New Unique Legendary Dragons with Stretch Goals of up to 20 Dragons! We’re cooking up content for your 5th Edition game! You’ll not only have brand new Legendary Dragons and their lore to throw at your players, but some new monsters, too!
      New Dragons New Wyverns New Drakes New Hydras Not only will GMs and Players get 12+ Legendary Dragons (with the option for up to 20), we have some other dragon-related goodies that we are planning:
      New Kobolds New Dragon Races New Lairs Dragon Cults Dragon Riders Dragon Hunters Dragon Hunting Factions Dragon Hunting & Monster Hunting Economies New spell components you can only get by hunting Dragons Enhance existing spells with your new Dragon spell components Dragon hoard Items Dragon Tactics and how to use Dragons effectively in your game! Aerial Combat Options And much, much more… Legendary Dragons is estimated to be at least 100+ pages.
      We also teamed up with some of the best 5E writers in the biz!
      • James J. Haeck: Lead Writer, at D&D Beyond. Co-author Waterdeep: Dragon Heist and the Critical Role Tal'Dorei Campaign Setting. DM of @WorldsApartShow
      • Dan Dillon: Writer, Tome of Beasts and Creature Codex from Kobold Press, Dungeons & Dragons Adventurer’s League, Rogue Genius Games, Legendary Games, Rite Publishing.
      • Cody Lewis:YouTube creator. D&D Twitch Streamer. Dungeon Master. http://youtube.com/taking20. Mad mind behind Save or Dice.
      • Jim Pinto: Writer: Legend of the Five Rings, Warlord, Protocol, Praxis, The Carcass, George’s Children, World’s Largest Dungeon,Gods and Goddesses, and Masters and Minions.
       
      In our earlier supplements, we didn’t skimp on art. In fact, when Jetpack7 was created, we set out with a goal of having the best art in the industry!
      In Legendary Dragons, you can bet on seeing many full-color, full-page, high-quality art pieces produced with the same care and attention as our other supplements.
      Check out some of the Dragon related art we have done for other companies!
      Insight Check? Wyvern with and without saddle concept Legendary Dragons has some of the most experienced and talented industry vets working on it. Some familiar names and projects are listed here!
      James J. Haeck, Lead Writer, @DnDBeyond. Co-author Waterdeep: Dragon Heist & Critical Role Tal'Dorei Campaign Setting. DM of @WorldsApartShow Dan Dillon, Writer, Tome of Beasts and Creature Codex from Kobold Press, Dungeons & Dragons Adventurer’s League, Rogue Genius Games, Legendary Games, Rite Publishing. Cody Lewis, YouTube creator. D&D Twitch Streamer. Dungeon Master. http://youtube.com/taking20. Mad mind behind Save or Dice Jim Pinto, Writer: Legend of the Five Rings, Warlord, Protocol, Praxis, The Carcass, George’s Children and World’s Largest Dungeon. David Gene Adams, RPG author that has been making content for D&D since 4th edition. Catch his stuff on the DMsGuild and Jetpack7's blog.
      Daniel Colby, Dungeon Master by day, mad illusionist by night! Blogger and contributor to Jetpack7.
      Aaron Hübrich, Writer/Artist/Designer. Publisher at Jetpack7. Creative director at Conceptopolis, a company that contributed hundreds of art pieces for the Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition core books. Aaron has been playing Dungeons & Dragons since there were yellow character sheets that didn't take to erasers very well... and has fond memories of THAC0.
      Conceptopolis, LLC, Artwork: Major art contributions to Hasbro, Mattel, Marvel, DC, Wizards of the Coast, Lego, Sony, Square Enix, among others.
      Published by Jetpack7: Gods and Goddesses and also Masters and Minions—both successfully funded on Kickstarter. Published and delivered to backers in 2017 and 2018.
       
    • By CAVBOSS
      WE ARE LIVE... https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/272456130/talon-games-cav-strike-ops-iii

    • By kodiakbear
      https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dwarvenforge/caverns-deep-by-dwarven-forge-handcrafted-game-ter/description
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
      If anybody here loves cavern terrain and missed DF's first cavern KS KS2, this spring/summer around June DF will have KS6. The theme of KS6 will be Return to the Caverns and should be great fun for those who took part in KS2 or those who are new to DF.

      DF had this to say and showed the below teaser pics

      We're doing for Caverns what Dungeon of Doom did for Dungeons. A whole new batch of fun pieces to enhance your existing collection, but also completely stand-alone.

      Some of the key features:
      New Core Shapes (diagonal wall, convex curves, 1" pieces, etc)
      Passages
      Elevation (with stuff that's impossible on graph paper...)
      Negative Space pieces (and new Terrain Trays)
      Flashy Pieces (Magnets & LEDs)
      Large pieces (4x4 and larger)
       

       

       

       

       

       
    • By Mckenna35
      I was in on the Chibi project they did earlier this year and it was delivered on-time and the quality was good.  This looks like an interesting assortment of figures, including good deals on  bunch of Heartbreaker stuff!
       
      https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/674003445/impact-miniatures-presents-the-lost-ks-mini-projec?ref=friends_launched
       
      Their synopsis:
       
      Not All Minis go to Heaven
       Impact! believes that lost and forgotten or unmade miniatures shouldn't stay lost to the hard drive abyss they've been relegated to.  
      Whether they were from discontinued lines, failed or undelivered projects we think they deserve to be resurected, brought into the light, and that's why this project is dedicated that end.   
      Today we give you a chance to get minis that are either no longer available, or never made it the light of day.  
      Over the past year Impact! has reached out to different Kickstarter Creators whose lines of miniatures failed to fund, were never got delivered or finished, or simply were discontinued after an initial printing run.     
      We've licensed or outright purchased everything shown in this project and now all that is left raise the capital for molds and materials and bring these amazing miniatures to backers to you, your friends, and your families and for gamers on tables everywhere! 
    • By Orlando_the_Technicoloured
      https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cmon/starcadia-quest/description
       
      Main Game ($80)

       
      Expansion Box ($40, so $120 total)

       
      We will ship your rewards at our cost to our international hubs. Depending on where in the world you are, we will either ship to you from our hub in the UK (EU backers), China (Asia Pacific backers), Singapore (Singaporean backers), Canada (Canadian backers), Australia (Australia and New Zealand backers) or Atlanta (USA and the rest of the world). Following is a list of rough estimates for shipping a standard game package (4kg volumetric weight). Keep in mind these are just estimates, and costs may rise based on weight increases from unlocked stretch goals and any optional buys you choose.
      USA: $10-$20 to most states. $50 to Alaska, Hawaii, and Puerto Rico.  CANADA: $15-$30 to most cities.  LATIN AMERICA: $70-$80 to most countries.  ASIA: $10 to China, Hong Kong, and Singapore. $35 to most other countries (we can’t predict an estimate cost to Malaysia). OCEANIA: $20-$45 to Australia. $40 to New Zealand.  AFRICA: $95 to most countries.  EUROPE: $20-$30 to most countries.   • $35 to Norway, Switzerland, Finland, Estonia, and Latvia.   • $50 to Bosnia/Herzegowina, Croatia, and Iceland.   • $70-$80 to Israel, Liechtenstein, and Serbia.  • $90 to Belarus. Unfortunately, different import laws and customs have made it impossible for CMON to ship games to certain specific countries.
      *WE DO NOT SHIP TO:* Russia, Ukraine, Kazakhstan and Afghanistan.
      Basically a Tweaked version of Arcadia Quest designed to run faster and be easier to set up, with Sci-Fi-ification
       
      Dicetower preview video
       
      https://youtu.be/OIBNBe3HPXc
       
      Rulebook work in progress
       
      https://youtu.be/OIBNBe3HPXc
  • Who's Online   24 Members, 1 Anonymous, 0 Guests (See full list)

×