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Confrontation: Classic

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No idea.   The name was posted in a comment a couple of weeks back, but I don't remember what it was. 

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After looking at that site, it looks like they were on the Ulule site - I found four projects there by Editions Sans-Détour:

L'Appel de Cthulhu, 7e édition française in 2015
Les Contrées du Rêve in 2016
Les Masques de Nyarlathotep et Le Jour de la Bête in early 2017
Aventures - Le Jeu in late 2017

From what I can gather, it looks like the first two have fulfilled, but other two have not. 


 

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1 hour ago, Balgin Stondraeg said:

 

Would that be Ulule by any chance? French companies like to use Ulule because it is "the french alternative to Kickstarter and written all in French". Not that they're biased, or anything :p.

 

 

Good call.  I think this is it, but I don't know French:

Ulule page for Sans Detour's created projects (I think).

 

They're doing RPG books in French- I think it makes sense to go with a French website (otherwise, you'll just get tons of people asking you to do translations.

Edited by odinsgrandson
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This has become one of the few kickstarters that I really would prefer to be cancelled by the creators, reconsidered and relaunched at a later date, even though is has funded. Preferably by a different creator that can show some experience and skill in making minis.

 

I would say that they are still loosing backers because  this is looking even more dodgy than it did when I dropped my pledge early on. I would not suggest it is an outright scam, but it sure looks like they are saying anything they think the backers want to hear to get the cash in. However, it also sure looks like they have not considered the implications of those promises to the big picture.

 

So: "Danger! Danger Will Robinson! Danger!"

 

At this point I would be surprised if it delivers anything but substandard minis, or rather, I will be surprised if it actually delivers at all. I foresee alot of people loosing a lot of money here, with Palladium-levels of toxicity for all involved.

 

but I guess hope springs eternal for those backers that remain. Good luck to them. 

 

 

---

 

about the ulele-projects, AFAIK these are translations into French that they have funded, and not original work. At least, all the Cthulhu items are translations. Dont really know about the others, as I have not looked into them.

 

 

 

Edited by Maledrakh
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I looked this morning and they've dropped below 500k now.  And I know several people were waiting for the 48 hour mark before deciding if they wanted to drop.  Maybe they already have now.  I dropped out awhile ago so just have it on remind to follow along.

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3 hours ago, Maledrakh said:

I would say that they are still loosing backers because  this is looking even more dodgy than it did when I dropped my pledge early on. I would not suggest it is an outright scam, but it sure looks like they are saying anything they think the backers want to hear to get the cash in. However, it also sure looks like they have not considered the implications of those promises to the big picture.

 

i don't think it's an outright scam either.  Over the years, I've met several people who are outright unethical scam artists, but I've met LOT MORE people who simply don't handle potential failure well, and go into denial about it, which just leads them to a bigger, more spectacular failure faster.  These guys seem like the latter.  

I think that they started out with rough numbers and over confidence from their previous crowdfunded projects, saw the spectacular launch and quick rise of this KS - what was it, nearly 250% funded - and got all excited. But when questions came up that they didn't have answers to, they started panicking, gave conflicting info, and are now in denial and just trying to keep enthusiasm among backers afloat, hoping it will all work out somehow. 

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I still have my doubts about it dropping below funding levels, and since they decided that they can delivery their 1.25 million stretch goals for less than 500k.

That probably doesn't make them scam artists.  Rather, they're doubling down on their failure hoping to pull it out.

Now that we have even less money, we can deliver even more minis!  They're hoping that making bigger promises will bring in enough funding to fulfill them (it seems to be doing the opposite- people are having less confidence that they'll deliver anything).


The part that looks like a scam is the business organization- the way that Sans Detour is opting the Confrontation license from Stellar when both companies are owned by the same people (and the fact that Stellar has taken down their "Who are we" and address information since it was discovered- and internet forums tell me that that is illegal in France). 

 

I still suspect that it isn't as deliberate as that.  Of course, incompetence doesn't look much different from a scam when the backers don't have anything

Edited by odinsgrandson
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5 hours ago, odinsgrandson said:

Of course, incompetence doesn't look much different from a scam when the backers don't have anything

Very true.

Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to have a problem recognizing that, especially after they get burned by said incompetence after they personally ignore red flags about it. 

"Well, sure, I ignored the half dozen signs or more that you might be incompetent. Therefore, you were deliberately scamming me. Shame on you!" 

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So apparently now Stellar Licencing are selling off the Confrontation Master Sculpts at rediculously high prices. I'm sure this will only fuel that desperate "this is the last chance to get them" feeling that encourages the diehard Confrontation fans to back the current kickstarter.

 

I'd provide a link but we're not allowed to link to commercial sites.

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@kristof65 and @odinsgrandson, you pretty much summed up why I am not calling it an actual scam.

 

I do not think they are outright scammers, in that I do think they have every intention of trying to make the models they say. However, since I also do not think they have done their own due dilligence and are really off the deep end when it comes to actually producing this, their apparent incompetence coupled with the endless promising and self-confident sales blather will pretty much amount to the same result: backers will lose their money.

 

I would add to the business part, that Ludik Bazaar, a deep discount games online retailer, being the third business with the same owner and at the same business address as sans detour, seems to be failing and on the brink of bankruptcy. (or at least has been losing money to such a degree that they are remaking their business model to only reselling second hand items in a bid to survive.)

 

Which in this case makes it a very big minus, as it speaks both to that there is a real chance there is no extra money in the system to prop up any losses SD might take, but also that there might be a potential money drain that saps funds from SD to boot, depending on how their businesses are set up and how French bankruptcy / debtor's laws work. And  in turn might explain some desperation to get the cash in.

 

But of course, this is all malingnant hearsay from those who would see the KS campaign fail...

 

Edited by Maledrakh
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According to one of the KS collaborators, Ludik is now in the hands of a liquidator. 

Which should mean that it should no longer be a concern.  

 

However, depending upon French business law, and how well the owner setup the companies to separate them from his and their liabilities, it could also mean that Sans Detour risks seeing some of its assets seized to pay off Ludik's debts. Given that a sizable sum will be coming in via the Kickstarter, that's a real risk. 

 

Worse, the folks at Sans Detour have done nothing to show potential backers that it can't happen. 

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I don't know that much about French business laws.  In the US, they could easily have the three companies keeping everything separate.

 

But it is bad news either way.  If SD is partially responsible for Ludik's debts, then that's a problem for this kickstarter.  But if Stellar won't be responsible for Sans Detour's obligations, then they can easily walk away from a failed kickstarter without even giving up the rights to Confrontation (and have a bundle in "licensing fees" to boot).

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Hmm - today's update:
 

Quote

Confrontation Classic is funded at 300 000 €. It's a huge amount of money, much bigger than many other projects requesting far less money, and yet being successful. This funding covers all operating costs for the team up until the publication of the game, as well as the fabrication of the miniatures, both resin and plastic. As a matter of fact, we own the original miniatures allowing the manufacturing of the molds. Therefore, you pay neither for the engraving nor for the fabrication of masters! All these reasons make this project very much atypical.

So don't be surprised by the gap in prices in comparison with other projects, or by the generosity of this offer. Confrontation Classic is one of a kind. 
As far as we are concerned, we only want to cover the salaries of the team, the production and the shipping costs. 
You finance the reediting of an exceptional game, and instantly acquire a snapshot of its Golden Age: the complete game and a large range of gorgeous miniatures!


http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/996665814/confrontation-classic-the-legendary-skirmish-game/posts/2184769

 

Bolding is mine.

 

Actually, this isn't really unique - Reaper did the same thing with Bones I.  Most of the Bones I miniatures were already sculpted as well, and in fact, 36 of them in the core vampire set had already been produced under the Legendary Encounters line. 

 

When you compare what Bones I was offering up at the same level of funding, Sans Detour is definitely offering more. And yet, unlike Reaper, they don't appear to have any experience with minis production at all. And Bones I was not without it's own issues - it delivered late, and several of the minis didn't translate well to the material - and many of the ones that didn't were the fiddly ones that are most similar to the Confrontation minis. 

 

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45 minutes ago, odinsgrandson said:

I don't know that much about French business laws.  In the US, they could easily have the three companies keeping everything separate.

I imagine that the French laws are similar in that it can be done.  But the question is - was it done that way? 

And I know that in the US, even though it can be setup that way, sometimes things happen that can still end up intermingling the companies and their liabilities.  For example, many banks will still require a personal guarantee from an owner getting financing for an LLC. I've seen at least one car wash owner desperate to sell off his car wash before the personal guarantee to the bank meant they would go after not only his personal assets, but that of his other business.  I've also seen owners intermingle their personal assets with that of their businesses, thus nullifying the protections that having an LLC or incorporating should have given them. 

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