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TaleSpinner

Female Humanoid Dragons????

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This is inspired by a post by @redambrosia in the GTKY thread. I didn't want to take that thread OT, so II'm starting this here.

 

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In the industry as a whole: female humanoid dragons. Real torture is trying to mod three different female draconians, complete with wings. Hell is having to do it seven more times :mellow:

 

So, as a sculptor who likes humanoid dragons: Whaaa?  :unsure::blink:

 

OK, so reptiles do have females, but they have no mammary glands and no outward facing sexual organs (even the males have everything inside the body).  In some reptiles, the females are less fancy than the males (e.g., smaller crests, smaller spines, no dewlap, duller colors). Very little of this will translate to "female" in minis. 

 

So without adding mammalian breasts, how would one go about making a female, humanoid dragon?

 

This, IMHO, IS a female (or at least, I so thought of her as I sculpted her; if you look at my post on these, you'll note that I always refer to them as "it" because really, only they know.):

 

B2.jpg

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I've always thought of it (and this may very well be a distinction in my mind and no one else's) as the question of "anthropomorphic" vs. "humanoid." 

 

The division in my mind is that anthropomorphic reptiles have human characteristics, such as mammalian sexual features. Humanoid reptiles merely resemble humans by virtue of being bipedal with vertically-aligned hips.

 

Put more simply, I think of anthropomorphic animals as "cartoon" animals, and humanoids as "bipedal versions of the base creature."

 

Which puts me in rough agreement with you, Andy.

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The font of all knowledge(Wikipedia) says;

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Anthropomorphism is the attribution of human traits, emotions, or intentions to non-human entities.[1] It is considered to be an innate tendency of human psychology.[2]

Personification is the related attribution of human form and characteristics to abstract concepts such as nations, emotions and natural forceslike seasons and the weather.

 

Transforming an animal into a human-like shape is one thing, and can be rather stunning sometimes...  

But you must never lose the attibutes that defines the original animal.

Reptiles are cold-blooded(that's kind of difficult to sculpt so skip that one), have detailed skin(varies. This is a good bit to keep), lays eggs and have all the 'naughty bits' internally. Size and shape of claws should be recognisable, eyes also. 

There are traits that could be added, though, to indicate 'female', such as slim body/wide hips, softer features, and a smaller stature. 

Boobs, though, really doesn't belong on a lizard of any type. 

 

Incidentally, Dolphins are mammals... but doesn't have visible boobs, and shouldn't have tem even if you anthropomorphised one. 

 

Cangaroos probably don't care... and the Platypus... is so far out there that yeah... go ahead and boob it!

 

 

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There's two important questions to consider with regards to the topic, which are both subjective. The first, do you consider dragons to be reptiles? The second, what do you consider to be feminine (aside from boobs)?

 

First: I don't consider dragons, or any of the various creatures related to dragons, to be reptiles. They have some reptilian features, yes, but that doesn't make them reptiles. 

 

Second: in an idealized feminine form I look for sleek muscles and more refined features. A perfect example is the Dora Milaje warriors from Black Panther, or the Amazons from the Wonder Woman movie. (Seriously, I love them.) 

 

In a humanoid, I would look for wider hips, even if birthing eggs, unless the young started off really small. A little pooch in the lower belly, where the reproductive organs are (human females have this too, which is why flat stomachs are a ridiculous impossibility). Those are the only two items I consider absolutely nessasary for starting a female creature. 

 

More strictly on the question you asked Andy, my female draconians have boobs. Why? Because it's fantasy and I like to draw my ridiculous fantasy costumes with boobs :shrug:

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25 minutes ago, Gadgetman! said:

 

Boobs, though, really doesn't belong on a lizard of any type. 

 

Incidentally, Dolphins are mammals... but doesn't have visible boobs, and shouldn't have tem even if you anthropomorphised one.

 

Being as how humanimals don't actually exist, there is no way to depict them that is really "accurate". There are some traits that can be tonally inconsistent with the story or whatever you put them in and of course having lizardmen with duck bills might be odd because it's a trait you associate with a different animal altogether. There's also the matter of the degree to which they're humanised. A 70/30 split in favour of the animal is going to be different than a 30/70 split.

 

So, yeah, sure, dolphins don't have boobs. Dolphins also don't have legs or any human traits at all so giving them those is inaccurate. It's all up to whatever the person doing the illustrating or describing wants to achieve.

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I agree, mostly, with your points, @redambrosia, although I don't reach the same conclusion as you (largely because the conclusion is pretty subjective, being about fantasy creatures and all).

 

I will say, though, the question of "is a dragon a reptile" is less important to me than "what are a dragon's defining physical characteristics?"

 

One of which is that all a dragon's sexual characteristics are internal, similar to a reptile (at least, the most common depictions of Dragons, and certainly all the art in D&D publications, do not include teats or other external parts).

 

Now, to get really in the weeds...I could support an argument for the Dragonborn race having more mammalian characteristics, as it is my understanding (full disclosure, I don't play 4E, 5E or PF and don't use the race in my games, so my facts may be off) that the Dragonborn are a race built from the union of Dragons and humanoids somewhere in the distant past.

 

Draconians, the Dragonlance race, are born from the corruption of good dragon eggs by Takhisis, and have no biology other than that of a dragon, so to my mind they would be built like a dragon, i.e., without external sexual characteristics (not that there were any female draconians, because Dragonlance stopped producing novels and no, I've never heard of "Draconic Overlords," what's that? Who is this "Mina" upstart?! Get off my lawn!)

 

Lizardfolk and Reaper's Reptus faction are, by definition, reptiles...as are ophidians and trogolodytes.

 

Although they worship dragons (depending on the Setting), kobolds are usually defined as reptilian rather than draconic(though some games make them out to be weirdly mammalian, such as "Kobolds Ate My Baby." Folklorically, I think the reptilian Kobold is actually pretty recent... Anyway, the more mammalian Kobold would obviously have mammalian characteristics).

 

I don't recall much about the weird dragon-ish shock troops that WotC introduced for War of the Dragon Queen, something that Tiamat created. I don't know where those fall.

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13 minutes ago, Sanael said:

kobolds are usually defined as reptilian rather than draconic(though some games make them out to be weirdly mammalian, such as "Kobolds Ate My Baby."

 

I cannot cite any references, but my recollection of kobolds in early editions of D&D described them as dog-like, but slowing redefined them to the current reptilian form because the dog-like description overlapped with gnolls.

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29 minutes ago, Clearman said:

 

I cannot cite any references, but my recollection of kobolds in early editions of D&D described them as dog-like, but slowing redefined them to the current reptilian form because the dog-like description overlapped with gnolls.

 

The very first image had them with scales:

 

excerpt_MM_0916_2.png

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4 minutes ago, TaleSpinner said:

 

The very first image had them with scales:

 

excerpt_MM_0916_2.png

 

Cool picture.

 

Just so I could ensure I wasn't imagining something, if did find on Wikipedia that "kobolds were described as dog-like humanoids with ratlike tails, horns and hairless scaly skin, and were not associated with dragons".   It is Wikipedia, so take it with a grain of salt.

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It depends where your humanoid dragons come from.

 

If it is because a humanoid and a shape changed dragon got busy, then boobs are a possibility, I guess.

 

Eberron, the silver dragons have a predilection that way.

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1 hour ago, PaganMegan said:

It depends where your humanoid dragons come from.

 

If it is because a humanoid and a shape changed dragon got busy, then boobs are a possibility, I guess.

 

Eberron, the silver dragons have a predilection that way.

Humanoids having Dragon blood has been a given part of where sorcerers get their powers for the last few editions of D&D - so it stands to reason a lot of shape changed dragons were getting busy with humans and elves and dwarves and gnomes and, well, everything on two legs. 

Personally, because it is so subjective, it comes down to the setting I'm playing in and how the setting defines where the humanoid dragons come from.   Which means that I can appreciate art or miniatures that express it either way. 

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7 hours ago, TaleSpinner said:

This is inspired by a post by @redambrosia in the GTKY thread. I didn't want to take that thread OT, so II'm starting this here.

 

 

So, as a sculptor who likes humanoid dragons: Whaaa?  :unsure::blink:

 

OK, so reptiles do have females, but they have no mammary glands and no outward facing sexual organs (even the males have everything inside the body).  In some reptiles, the females are less fancy than the males (e.g., smaller crests, smaller spines, no dewlap, duller colors). Very little of this will translate to "female" in minis. 

 

So without adding mammalian breasts, how would one go about making a female, humanoid dragon?

 

This, IMHO, IS a female (or at least, I so thought of her as I sculpted her; if you look at my post on these, you'll note that I always refer to them as "it" because really, only they know.):

 

B2.jpg

And as a side not, it cast up pretty.  It's on my list of stuff to paint soon-ish.

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I'm pretty much the same mindset as @redambrosia with things...  It's nice to have that tell tale sign in the chest area...  Sure, it's nice to have a more silky and svelte body, but ignoring some of the other options, it's nice to have a telltale sign that it's a woman, like visible breasts (whether they're an outline behind cloth, or more, uhm, obvious).  That's the joy of fantasy ^_^

 

 

... I'll playfully say so long as we aren't talking what Sega did to poor Knuckles in the most recent series.  Man, that poor, crafty, knowledgeable guy, reduced to beyond beefcake for an upper torso... 

 

The example @TaleSpinner puts up, to me comes across as rather androgenous, and could be taken either way depending on how the mini was painted - it could be a thinner, more fem boy kind of look, or a woman.  Or a mimic. 

Edited by WhiteWulfe
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Dreadball has these tentacle monster things with bewbs.

 

Because the tentacle things have discovered that the humanoid teams are easily distracted by bouncing bewbs, ::P:

 

And MOST of the teams are humanoids!

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My Fire HATES these forums sometimes, and gets caught in a loop while posting.

 

My Fire HATES these forums sometimes, and gets caught in a loop while posting.

 

My Fire HATES these forums sometimes, and gets caught in a loop while posting.

Edited by PaganMegan
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