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Wow.  Just finished getting caught up on this thread after ignoring it for months.   It's interesting to note the change in reactions of the various people here over that time. A few, like  @TheAuldGrump have been pretty consistent with their opinion, while others, like @PaganMegan and @Doug Sundseth seem to have their opinions of it steadily drop.  I didn't note anyone here who's opinion has gotten better in that time frame.

That does not bode well for Paizo.   

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*sigh* Yah, no. Mr. Thorne did eventually finish a character, after five hours of going back and forth through the book.

 

We don't like the sheet layout. We despise Resonance (we particularly despise it for consumables). We're not the largest fan of how they've re-labeled encumbrance. Playtest book organization is terrible.

 

There's bad stuff going on over there. We're... unamused. Mr. Thorne is seriously thinking to jump ship and go to The Dark Eye, if this keeps up.

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This... may be Paizo's 4e. They have been taking a small but vocal minority for a majority, because it fit what the game designers wanted to do.

 

I still like it more than 4e - but considerably less than 5e, which I like considerably less than PF1.

 

I will be sticking with PF1 for the foreseeable future.

 

Megan was fuming while working on a Playtest character - none of the group actually made it as far as actually playing the playtest scenario.

 

Weaker characters that require more work to create, and generate more paperwork to upkeep... hurray?

 

PF2 is a 2.5 out of 5. 4e was a 2, 5e is a 3.5,  and PF1 is a 4 - 4.5 with Advanced Player's Guide. Making it tied with late edition 2e.

 

The Auld Grump - F.A.T.A.L. holds steady as the only 1, with the Mega System as 1.5. AD&D 1e is 3, but partly because of rose colored memory spectacles.

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Honestly, I think the biggest problem I have with this system is the blasted rulebook itself. The Index is severely lacking, the contents are too visually busy to skim through quickly, and far far far too much information is pulled off into sidebars and boxes, or has been renamed and put into a different section entirely (which wouldn't be as much a problem if the Index weren't a piece of garbage). 

 

I generally don't have much trouble learning new systems, unless the rules are difficult to read. I can figure out anything if I can easily find the information. Which in this book I can't.

 

Which frustrates me more is that they specifically said in the PaizoCon panels that they were going to FIX the overly cluttered rulebook. I cheered out loud when they made that announcement! Yet instead, I now have a book (and character sheet and playtest module) that feel more like they were created by graphic designers and English majors than game designers (not a dig at English majors, just that the module in particular favors narrative description over facts, making it difficult to suss out essential information). 

 

I've said I'm going to stick it out to the end, and I will, hoping that lessons will be learned and changes will be made. If I'm still unhappy with the final Version 2, well we still have gobs of Version 1 materials. :) 

 

Huzzah! 

--OneBoot :D 

Edited by OneBoot
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55 minutes ago, OneBoot said:

Honestly, I think the biggest problem I have with this system is the blasted rulebook itself. The Index is severely lacking, the contents are too visually busy to skim through quickly, and far far far too much information is pulled off into sidebars and boxes, or has been renamed and put into a different section entirely (which wouldn't be as much a problem if the Index weren't a piece of garbage). 

 

I generally don't have much trouble learning new systems, unless the rules are difficult to read. I can figure out anything if I can easily find the information. Which in this book I can't.

 

Which frustrates me more is that they specifically said in the PaizoCon panels that they were going to FIX the overly cluttered rulebook. I cheered out loud when they made that announcement! Yet instead, I now have a book (and character sheet and playtest module) that feel more like they were created by graphic designers and English majors than game designers (not a dig at English majors, just that the module in particular favors narrative description over facts, making it difficult to suss out essential information). 

 

I've said I'm going to stick it out to the end, and I will, hoping that lessons will be learned and changes will be made. If I'm still unhappy with the final Version 2, well we still have gobs of Version 1 materials. :) 

 

Huzzah! 

--OneBoot :D 

 

 

.. hey.

I've /done/ graphic design, and I'm pretty sure I could have done better than that.

 

But I'm not designing for looks, I design for usability, which they appear to have missed doing. >.<

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7 minutes ago, Sylverthorne said:

 

 

.. hey.

I've /done/ graphic design, and I'm pretty sure I could have done better than that.

 

But I'm not designing for looks, I design for usability, which they appear to have missed doing. >.<

 

Fair point. And I apologize, that wasn't a dig at graphic designers either (I have two in my family), just that it seems to be designed with looking pretty first and utility second (especially the character sheet....).

 

Huzzah! 

--OneBoot :D 

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I made similar comments when White Wolf Magazine became Inphobia... (It going away shortly thereafter was no beginning of a surprise.)

 

When the first issue had a great picture of chicken necks, I knew the magazine was doomed. (You might think someone would tell them that, 'Hey! People aren't going to buy a gaming magazine that has gotten rid of its gaming content, and features chicken necks on the cover!' but... there it was.)

 

Sometimes clever people can be amazingly stupid. Resonance Points is a case in point... so to speak.

 

The Auld Grump

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I will say, I loved the session I played with @Thes Hunter, BUT I ended up not using many of my resonance points because they seemed too limited...which resulted in my alchemist playing a little too like a rogue. 

 

The battle mechanics feel good...I didn't get a super feel for the rping mechanics. I'm not sure, however, why they chose to have such a small value for the resource that is supposed to be central to each class. It felt...off. Additionally, for the pool size, resonance points are being used for way too many things at once...

 

My only personal problem so far is the resonance points. I slightly prefer this character creation over 5e, but I will say I find 5e character creation way too limiting option wise, so I liked the idea of being able to do less potentially, but have more choices on what to do.

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4 hours ago, Sylverthorne said:

But I'm not designing for looks, I design for usability, which they appear to have missed doing. >.<

 

See, that's your problem. You're doing it wrong. Kind of like how people who held the iPhone 4 like it was a phone were "holding it wrong" because the design caused holding the phone like a phone to short out the cell antenna. You're supposed to make things pretty, not functional.

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6 minutes ago, Unruly said:

 

See, that's your problem. You're doing it wrong. Kind of like how people who held the iPhone 4 like it was a phone were "holding it wrong" because the design caused holding the phone like a phone to short out the cell antenna. You're supposed to make things pretty, not functional.

 

Yah, I know. It's a curse. :/

 

.. I'm just not sure if it's /my/ curse, or theirs.

But I'm not a fan of whatever they're imbibing over there, the results are just complete pants with a side of WTEF.

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53 minutes ago, Sylverthorne said:

Yah, I know. It's a curse. :/

 

.. I'm just not sure if it's /my/ curse, or theirs.

Hey now, no cursing in here.  This is a family forum.  ::P:

 

My only contact with PF2 has been threads like this but I have to say I don't understand the self-destructive impulse to make your rules worse that seems to strike pretty much every game company at one time or another.  Maybe it's some weird desire to do something different whether you need to or not.  Or possibly losing sight of what people actually like about your current system.  Ah well, hopefully they'll pull it together and right the ship.

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as I mentioned earlier, i'm pretty sure resonance is going to be redone or done away with.  they've gotten lots of negative feedback on it.  deservedly so IMHO.

 

I too agree the layout of the book is atrocious.  having a table of experienced players and gms trying way too long at trying to figure out what's intended with a "grab" shows there's a lot they need to work on in layout, indexing, and especially clarity.

 

the character making section is really tough to parse.  knowing about how pf1 worked is a little bit of a hindrance because you're expecting that general feat at first level.  it's not coming unless you're human and play some games.

 

I do quite like the action economy.  I played pf2 right before a pf1 game.  I was really wanting the 3 actions of pf2 in the later game.

healing resources require more attention to handle.  having a dedicated healer is probably a must.  i'm not sure how I feel about that.

 

rogues can do scare amounts of damage.

 

the two handed power attack fighter/barbarian doesn't seem to be as prevalent.  I've been seeing lots of swords and boards.

 

I recommend playing pf2 at least once with the pregens.  getting mired in character creation isn't fun, and alas is probably pretty likely as the book is written now.

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