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People I know who switched to 5E did so because they got tired of the rules and power bloat of PF and wanted something simpler

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I'm rather perplexed about the whole PF2 & 5E situation.  I used to run games of d20/3.0/3.5 way back when that stuff was new.  I have a certain distaste for the weirdness of ever-expanding hit-point totals, the utterly bizarre economy, and the matter-of-factness of easy access to magic, resurrections, and other miracles, provided you've got enough cash ... but for a certain type of crazy dungeon crawl game, it just works.

 

For a while, I ran Savage Worlds (and tinkered with a few other "minis-friendly, relatively rules-light" systems), but the loudest and most influential members of my player group got sick of Savage Worlds, so that ended.  Now, we've got two Pathfinder campaigns going on -- one online, one tabletop, alternating weekends, neither one GM'ed by me.  While there are certain points of Pathfinder that bug me, I still think it at least fixes a few problems I had with old d20/3.0/3.5 -- and any of the problems I STILL have, I think are fixable.  But the trouble is, the loudest and most influential members of my player group are NOW getting noisy about Pathfinder 2E.

 

The main points for me to do something with Pathfinder 1st edition vs. bothering with 2nd edition would be:

* I'm familiar with the rules system.

* For a standard D&D-esque dungeon grind, it works fine.

* I invested in the full "pro" version of Fantasy Grounds, and I've got a whole mess of 3.0/3.5 and now Pathfinder books.

* I'm getting old.  Must I learn yet ANOTHER set of rules that I'll end up getting muddled in my head with all the OTHER systems competing with them for brain-space in my head?  If there are problems, can't we just patch it up with some house rules or something?

* It's pretty easy to get some dungeons to drop some PCs into.  I mean, there's a LOT of material out there.  (Now, whether they're WELL-WRITTEN dungeons, that's another matter.)

 

I'm not terribly fond of either of the "epic campaigns" we've been playing (Rise of the Runelords, and Kingmaker -- I'd have to write something of an essay to explain just why), and the quality of the cartography has been pretty bad (again, an essay), but at least there's a big library of material out there, whether for 3.0 or 3.5 or Pathfinder, that I could draw upon to put my PCs in some dungeons.  Overhaul the system TOO much, and the old adventures are no longer compatible, and that's no longer a positive factor for me to consider.

 

5E wasn't even on my radar until this year's Necronomicon rolled around in October.  There was only one Pathfinder session all weekend, but my wife Wendy participated in three different 5E adventure sessions ... and she hardly EVER plays tabletop RPGs!  Not mine, anyway.  (I'm flabbergasted, and a bit jealous.)

 

I've been working on a little side project, where I found that some fellow (Adam Trionfo -- http://atariage.com/forums/topic/183584-temple-of-apshai-trilogy-maps/ ) very nicely MAPPED OUT the old "Temple of Apshai" levels, and I thought -- hey, how about I convert the material from those old guide books and the maps and whatnot into a Pathfinder adventure, complete with full-color map tiles I could use for Fantasy Grounds?  Well, if Pathfinder 1E is going to be a "dead" system, maybe I should consider 5E instead.  (As it so happens, someone donated a 5E player's guide for me to read through, so that's further incentive.)

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Jordan Peacock said:

I have a certain distaste for the weirdness of ever-expanding hit-point totals, the utterly bizarre economy, and the matter-of-factness of easy access to magic, resurrections, and other miracles, provided you've got enough cash ...

5E still has the hit points and the easy resurrections at higher levels but the economy and magic item accessibility is left far more up to how the DM runs things.

Accuracy is a lot more bounded and enemy armor class is generally low (until you get to campaign-level adversaries, few even reach AC20, full plate & shield) so even a +1 weapon is a huge boon in this regard, to-hit bonuses boost up pretty fast. So in that regard, 5E doesn't need magic items for the game to keep going, which leaves the accessibility of magic items and the bizarre economy that comes with it relatively absent.

 

12 minutes ago, Jordan Peacock said:

Well, if Pathfinder 1E is going to be a "dead" system

That's entirely up to you and your group. There's probably people out there still playing AD&D 2nd edition.

Heck, I'm a newbie and I'm hoping I can use the Rules Cyclopedia for my next campaign.

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11 hours ago, SamuraiJack said:

People I know who switched to 5E did so because they got tired of the rules and power bloat of PF and wanted something simpler

 

This.

 

Keeping track of everything in PF got to be a nightmare. Especially when you get into all the splatbooks, because unlike the hardcover books the rules in the splatbooks aren't officially put online for free. And with the 2-splatbooks per month(one character book, one campaign setting book, both with new rules) release schedule you knew there was no way that everything was being properly tested. Not even the hardcovers had everything properly tested, or else the Crane Style line of monk feats from Ultimate Combat wouldn't have been nuked from orbit in errata just because it was too good in Pathfinder Society play.

 

Also, I just tried to go to the Pathfinder SRD on Paizo's site, and it's apparently gone. They've killed it. Instead, the link now takes you to the "Archives of Nethys" version, which is HORRIBLE. I liked that the Paizo PRD was laid out by book. And there were indices. And it was hyperlinked to hell and back so that you could flip through everything stupid fast. This new place is a comparative nightmare. I went to look up the Crane Style feats, and the "Feats" section is literally just an alphabetical table of every feat that Paizo has published in a hardcover. You can then sort it by feat types, but that just gets you a smaller table of the same design. So if I wanted to look at all the Crane Style feats, it's either find them all in the massive feat table, find them in the massive combat feats table, or find Crane Wing and Crane Riposte in those two tables while finding Crane Style in the much smaller Style Feats table.

 

Seriously, who thought that was a good change? Neat and organized, readily accessible PRD to "Here's a mess of tables. Hope you like scrolling!" Reading over on the Paizo site it seems it just happened in September, and was a sudden thing that happened with no warning. There's a few people who complained, with largely the same complaints I just voiced, and they were simply shouted down and told that they were morons by others.

 

9 hours ago, BlazingTornado said:

 

That's entirely up to you and your group. There's probably people out there still playing AD&D 2nd edition.

Heck, I'm a newbie and I'm hoping I can use the Rules Cyclopedia for my next campaign.

 

One of the many podcasts I listen to is Nerd Poker, which is Brian Posehn and his friends playing D&D. In its original incarnation, they were playing a super house ruled version of 2e. I haven't started on Nerd Poker 2.0, so I don't know what system it's on, but I know they experimented with 4e for like 2 sessions of 1.0 before bailing on it and going back to 2e. And until 5e came out one of my friends refused to run anything other than 2e because, for reasons he couldn't/wouldn't enunciate, he didn't like 3e/PF.

Edited by Unruly
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11 hours ago, SamuraiJack said:

People I know who switched to 5E did so because they got tired of the rules and power bloat of PF and wanted something simpler

This seems to be the way things are probably going to go with my group.  (One of my players has already rejected the idea of using PF1 in a future campaign because there's so much stuff to look at, and that's just the hardback sourcebooks!)

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The switch to AON was handled horribly.. but then again so was the Paizo web site update, which they did during Origins, which couldn't handle the load and still has caused PFS players to be missing previously reported chronicles and other data.

 

As a professional who tests this kind of stuff, the switch to AON should have been gradual until AON had time to get all the SRD stuff up on the site.. not just a cold switch over.. 

 

They should have just paid D20PFSRD instead.. 

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14 hours ago, SamuraiJack said:

People I know who switched to 5E did so because they got tired of the rules and power bloat of PF and wanted something simpler

 

I understand this sentiment.  Even though 3.x/PF is my favorite version of D&D, I also got tired of the excessive fiddly character options PF kept bolting onto the game.  Unfortunately I have no desire to play 5e, nor play online, so that basically means I don't get to play D&D anymore.

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I definitely think 5e has gained a lot of traction in my area, but it's a bit hard to judge accurately. We have a very large, and active Pathfinder Society organization in our region, which makes Pathfinder 1e much more prominent in stores than D&D 5e. On the other hand, 5e events at conventions seem to be expanding, and very well attended. (Personally, I think 5e is a pretty decent system, but much prefer the experience of Pathfinder organized play to the Adventurer's League.)

 

I'm mostly taking a "wait and see" approach on Pathfinder 2e, waiting for the dust to settle.

Edited by klarg1
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On 11/8/2018 at 7:46 AM, Unruly said:

 

 

Seriously, who thought that was a good change? Neat and organized, readily accessible PRD to "Here's a mess of tables. Hope you like scrolling!" Reading over on the Paizo site it seems it just happened in September, and was a sudden thing that happened with no warning. There's a few people who complained, with largely the same complaints I just voiced, and they were simply shouted down and told that they were morons by others.

 

 

 

That's not entirely accurate, the prd is there, they brought it back. It's just not being updated anymore. It hadn't been updated since 2016 anyway. Most of the shouting was between people being overdramatic about the effects of the change.

I've never understood the dislike of archive of nethys, I've always preferred it over d20prd. For gming I used the srd but I liked not having to remember what book an archetype or other feature was in on Archives of Nethys. The ridiculous lists for feats and spells were daunting though.

Edited by EvilJames
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AoN is just visually unappealing to a lot of people. It functions okay, but it's aesthetics kinda suck. Literally my first thought (before I found the switch from dark to light) as 'did I go back to Geocities?' It reminded me of some of the old AD&D websites I used to use back a hundred millennia ago. 

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3 hours ago, ShadowRaven said:

AoN is just visually unappealing to a lot of people. It functions okay, but it's aesthetics kinda suck. Literally my first thought (before I found the switch from dark to light) as 'did I go back to Geocities?' It reminded me of some of the old AD&D websites I used to use back a hundred millennia ago. 

 

… The Nineties called, they'd like their website back..?

 

As I understand it, the sudden swap to AoN was deliberate; and they forgot to warn AoN about it.

One more in the list of Interesting Business Decisions made by Paizo in this last year or so. Mr. Thorne and I are seriously looking at The Dark Eye. :/

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2 hours ago, Sylverthorne said:

 

… The Nineties called, they'd like their website back..?

 

As I understand it, the sudden swap to AoN was deliberate; and they forgot to warn AoN about it.

One more in the list of Interesting Business Decisions made by Paizo in this last year or so. Mr. Thorne and I are seriously looking at The Dark Eye. :/

It has been pointed out to me that James Jacobs has been strangely silent in regards to his opinion of PF2... and he was noisy indeed during the PF1 playtest.

 

I suspect that there is some serious infighting going on at Paizo, but that could just be my cynicism speaking.

 

The Auld Grump

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11 hours ago, EvilJames said:

That's not entirely accurate, the prd is there, they brought it back. It's just not being updated anymore. It hadn't been updated since 2016 anyway. Most of the shouting was between people being overdramatic about the effects of the change.

I've never understood the dislike of archive of nethys, I've always preferred it over d20prd. For gming I used the srd but I liked not having to remember what book an archetype or other feature was in on Archives of Nethys. The ridiculous lists for feats and spells were daunting though.

 

From what I saw, there was only like one "it's the end of the world!" post in the comments of the announcement. Most of the complaints were about poor organization and how Nethys doesn't filter things by source, which got rebuffed by "but if you click on each individual item it tells you what the source is at the top of the page." Which isn't really a valid rebuttal to "I want to be able to tell my players that only these books are legal, and I liked how the PRD made it so they could look at only stuff from those books if they wanted to."

 

There was also some lamenting of the loss of all the hyperlinking between pages. The PRD was full of them. Basically everything was linked to everything else, and it made reference super easy because if you didn't know what "staggered" was, whatever you were reading that mentioned it would have the word hyperlinked to the description of the staggered effect. And that's before looking at how you don't know what's a hyperlink and what isnt, because the guy who runs the site admits he doesn't like using changing the text to indicate a link. So you just have to guess if a word is a link or not for the few links that do exist.

 

And then there were the rules that simply weren't there at all. Like the mass combat and kingdom building rules from Ultimate Campaign, which were specifically called out in the comments. They simply didn't exist on Nethys until they put the archive of the old PRD up, and then the old site was used as a rebuttal for how the new site was "better."

 

All of those complaints were even confirmed by the guy who runs Nethys. He admitted that he didn't have all the rules up yet, that filtering needs more work, and that more extensive hyperlinking has been on the to-do list for a while. But, because it's basically a fan page run by a couple people, it's going to take time to get everything running. Which is precisely why Paizo reversed course a little bit and provided the old PRD to Nethys so that an archive could be run.

 

Nethys is great if you're wanting splatbook stuff. It is. Because it has almost all of it, and it's one of the few places online where you can get it all using the official names and such, because they've had a deal under Paizo's community use policy for a long time. But I still don't like the organization of the site. And the switchover was handled so very, very poorly that people actually thought that they were getting browser hijacked. There was no announcement until the day of, and one person said that one second they were on the original Paizo PRD reading up on something and then the next link they clicked took them to Nethys without warning. That sort of stuff is an immediate security red flag. Add to it that Nethys was obviously unprepared for the changeover themselves, and you've got a terrible situation all around.

 

I'm not going to say that Nethys isn't good for some things. Like I said, it's great if you want splatbook stuff. And I guess it shows you what stuff is PFS legal and what isn't, if the PFS is your thing. So that's two things it has going for it. But it isn't the super-perfect, no-faults website that it's defenders were trying to claim it to be. It's got problems, and some of those problems are fairly big and hairy, and they didn't really exist on the old PRD.

 

And I will never like the organizational system that Nethys uses. They really need a "sort by sources" option.

 

Edited by Unruly
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3 hours ago, TheAuldGrump said:

It has been pointed out to me that James Jacobs has been strangely silent in regards to his opinion of PF2... and he was noisy indeed during the PF1 playtest.

 

I suspect that there is some serious infighting going on at Paizo, but that could just be my cynicism speaking.

 

The Auld Grump

 

.. and now I'm tempted to see if I can't ambush him at Paizocon and find out what the *redacted* is going on with this *censored*. If I go, and he's there, that is.

 

Which reminds me, I need to do a thing.

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