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3 hours ago, Unruly said:

 

From what I saw, there was only like one "it's the end of the world!" post in the comments of the announcement. Most of the complaints were about poor organization and how Nethys doesn't filter things by source, which got rebuffed by "but if you click on each individual item it tells you what the source is at the top of the page." Which isn't really a valid rebuttal to "I want to be able to tell my players that only these books are legal, and I liked how the PRD made it so they could look at only stuff from those books if they wanted to."

 

There was also some lamenting of the loss of all the hyperlinking between pages. The PRD was full of them. Basically everything was linked to everything else, and it made reference super easy because if you didn't know what "staggered" was, whatever you were reading that mentioned it would have the word hyperlinked to the description of the staggered effect. And that's before looking at how you don't know what's a hyperlink and what isnt, because the guy who runs the site admits he doesn't like using changing the text to indicate a link. So you just have to guess if a word is a link or not for the few links that do exist.

 

And then there were the rules that simply weren't there at all. Like the mass combat and kingdom building rules from Ultimate Campaign, which were specifically called out in the comments. They simply didn't exist on Nethys until they put the archive of the old PRD up, and then the old site was used as a rebuttal for how the new site was "better."

 

All of those complaints were even confirmed by the guy who runs Nethys. He admitted that he didn't have all the rules up yet, that filtering needs more work, and that more extensive hyperlinking has been on the to-do list for a while. But, because it's basically a fan page run by a couple people, it's going to take time to get everything running. Which is precisely why Paizo reversed course a little bit and provided the old PRD to Nethys so that an archive could be run.

 

Nethys is great if you're wanting splatbook stuff. It is. Because it has almost all of it, and it's one of the few places online where you can get it all using the official names and such, because they've had a deal under Paizo's community use policy for a long time. But I still don't like the organization of the site. And the switchover was handled so very, very poorly that people actually thought that they were getting browser hijacked. There was no announcement until the day of, and one person said that one second they were on the original Paizo PRD reading up on something and then the next link they clicked took them to Nethys without warning. That sort of stuff is an immediate security red flag. Add to it that Nethys was obviously unprepared for the changeover themselves, and you've got a terrible situation all around.

 

I'm not going to say that Nethys isn't good for some things. Like I said, it's great if you want splatbook stuff. And I guess it shows you what stuff is PFS legal and what isn't, if the PFS is your thing. So that's two things it has going for it. But it isn't the super-perfect, no-faults website that it's defenders were trying to claim it to be. It's got problems, and some of those problems are fairly big and hairy, and they didn't really exist on the old PRD.

 

And I will never like the organizational system that Nethys uses. They really need a "sort by sources" option.

 

Maybe I missed a bit but it was only the doom and  gloom that got called out that I saw. There was a couple of times a complaint were taken the wrong way but when the person clarified their specific problem most people tried to help them make it work. Sometimes those weren't enough though. I definately agree Nethys was really really not ready for this yet. Paizo absolutely handled the transition poorly and really should have given Nethys a lot more time to prepare and at least get the rules online. I only found out about a couple of days afterwards when they had put the legacy prd up.  Also apparently I am unusual in that I like the aesthetic of Nethys. It doesnt look very 90's to me. Not when I can go to the websites for the two nearest drive in theaters to me. They have very very 90's/geocities look to them. It's painful to use them.

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54 minutes ago, EvilJames said:

*snipped*

 It doesnt look very 90's to me. Not when I can go to the websites for the two nearest drive in theaters to me. They have very very 90's/geocities look to them. It's painful to use them.

 

Honestly? I rather like the look of AoN myself, so my comment about the Nineties probably should have been in purple … ^^;

Sorry; that was something someone was telling Mr. Thorne about the current appearance of the Portal... and, well.. in the case of the Portal, it's probably accurate. Frames! Urgh. Anyway. what I was doing.. ah, yes. Griping!

 

But, in general, no, it wasn't handled well. AoN really should have had more time to prepare - six months warning probably would have been a good start. A year would be better, I can't imagine they have a lot of hands to do all the input and whatnot that is necessary (I've built websites; it's not nearly as easy as I'd like, and I'm not presently designing anything like AoN). And getting all the stuff to work, as well as look right... bleah. No, I can't imagine they were any happier over there than most of the folks who got surprise-directed over were.

I use the SRDs sparingly, but I know a lot of people depend on them, so …  I have a rather hefty WTF?! on the behalf of those folks.

 

Throw all that in with the Interesting Decision Chain that has been PF2 and I really /really/ want to bend somebody's ear over there for an explanation, even off the record, for what in the sam hell is going on. Even if I have to swear myself to eternal secrecy on whatever I find out.... >.>

 

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Around here 5e absolutely dominates over PF. No one in my FLGS has even mentioned it that I've heard. Maybe on some other night? But when I look at the shelf of stuff for sale in the RPG section, there's only the core PF books.

 

 

On 11/7/2018 at 11:12 PM, BlazingTornado said:

5E still has the hit points and the easy resurrections at higher levels but the economy and magic item accessibility is left far more up to how the DM runs things.

Accuracy is a lot more bounded and enemy armor class is generally low (until you get to campaign-level adversaries, few even reach AC20, full plate & shield) so even a +1 weapon is a huge boon in this regard, to-hit bonuses boost up pretty fast. So in that regard, 5E doesn't need magic items for the game to keep going, which leaves the accessibility of magic items and the bizarre economy that comes with it relatively absent.

 

That's entirely up to you and your group. There's probably people out there still playing AD&D 2nd edition.

Heck, I'm a newbie and I'm hoping I can use the Rules Cyclopedia for my next campaign.

Oh man, Rules Cyclopedia D&D is so great to run!! And yes, there are still people playing every version of D&D ever made. Even 4e (which was a great rules set for a miniatures tactical skirmish game)!

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On 11/8/2018 at 12:18 PM, VitM said:

@Jordan Peacock Curse you for sending me down that Temple of Apshai rabbit hole! :lol:  I loved those games! :wub:

 

Oh, thank goodness someone still knows of its existence!  :D  I've mentioned my idea in my player groups, and the general response I get is, "Huh?"  With half my group -- the 20-somethings -- that should be expected.  But even among the "old guard" there's only one who knows what I'm talking about, and his experience is limited to the "Epyx" Commodore 64 version.  I started with the PET/CBM 4032 version (32K!  integral green-screen CRT!  TAPE CASSETTE DECK!) from "Automated Simulations" in 1979.  Technically, it wasn't even my game -- it was on loan from one of my dad's co-workers, who was under-whelmed by the game -- so I didn't get to hold onto it indefinitely.  I was inspired by the accompanying pamphlet that had room descriptions (cross-referenced by the room number that would appear when you'd enter a room) -- and, of course, I'd cheat and read ahead on those descriptions, become fascinated by the details, and then my goal became to find the corresponding blocky representation in-game, curious as to what the description foreshadowed.  That is, the room description often provided a clue as to what sort of treasure -- or junk -- might be found in a room, the presence of a trap, or the presence of a secret door on this or that wall.  I'm still not entirely sure about the correlation between rooms and what monster encounters would appear in them.

 

Someone was nice enough to map out the Temple of Apshai game, and then the Upper Reaches of Apshai, and the Curse of Ra.  However, when the "Apshai Trilogy" was released by Epyx for the Commodore 64 and various other platforms, they inexplicably left out the "Lower Reaches of Apshai" (or "Hellfire Warrior"), so that's a bit more obscure -- and I haven't found maps or manuals for that.  I'd love to at least find the top "Lower Reaches of Apshai" level of Hellfire Warrior so I can complete the Apshai dungeon.  (I think I can do without the "Upper Reaches of Apshai" and its killer tomatoes and murderous housewives, though I suppose it might be cute to provide a map of the town resting atop the dungeon, and to somehow give a tip o' the hat to the layouts hinted at in the Upper Reaches levels when depicting the town locations.  Of course, nobody in my group will appreciate it, but ... eh, this is going to take me a long time anyway, and I'll likely be running it online.  Who knows?  Maybe I'll have a different set of recruits by then.)

 

I have no idea whether 5e or Pathfinder would be a better fit, but I suppose that depends upon how much I just "translate" it, and how much I add in.  After all, in the core game, adventurers are pretty much feat-less fighters, just swinging or thrusting a sword, firing the occasional arrow (only in compass directions!), occasionally Parleying with an Antman in order to pass by without a fight, gambling about whether that Magic Sword you just found will have a better Plus than the one you already have (once you trade, no take-backs!), and being left largely in the dark about just what benefit you were getting, if any, from that Magic Cloak or that Skull Ring.  (I still can't find any resource that explains what those things did.)  Unlike the video game, I'll be able to swarm the PCs with multiple Giant Mosquitos at once in an encounter, rather than having them spawn in sequence as they're killed off.  And I'll probably have to add something more interesting to the dungeon than just traps, secret doors, and verbose room descriptions of caverns and tunnels.

 

Campaign-wise, I don't think there's enough material to get the PCs beyond level 10 or so ... which I suppose might "solve" a few problems for me in that I won't have to deal with some of the crazier high-powered spells, at least.  My experience, with various iterations of d20, etc., has been that the higher the levels get, the harder it becomes to run certain types of adventure archetypes.  (Murder mysteries tend to require a lot of contrivance even at lower levels.  Overland journeys become moot as soon as the druid can just tree-walk the entire party anywhere on the entire plane so long as there's another tree of the same type somewhere near the intended destination.  And once the druid can take on an elemental form that lets him walk through solid stone, I can't just lazily terminate a tunnel on the map with a rockfall without at least putting some thought into what might be found just beyond.)  Nothing I've heard about 5e or PF2 indicates that this sort of thing is going to change.

 

Online, the mass of bonuses/penalties associated with Pathfinder isn't quite as hard to manage, provided I take the time to program Effects for everything -- and the players remember to use them.  One problem with our online Fantasy Grounds Pathfinder campaign is that many of the spells DO NOT have Effects programmed, and the guy who chooses to play a druid -- WILD SHAPE! ANIMAL COMPANION! SPELLS! -- is the one least inclined to crack into coding those effects in his spare time.  I was playing a Bard, so I pretty much HAD to learn how to do all that, in order to make sure everyone would get the buffs that made my class worth playing. 

 

Comparatively, in our tabletop Pathfinder game, I've been playing a Spell-less Ranger (Kobold Press option our GM allowed), and it's bad enough just trying to remember the pluses and minuses for "Is it a Favored Enemy?  Are we in Favored Terrain?  Am I using Rapid Shot?" (etc.)  But then the Oracle casts Bless and Prayer and rattles off, "It gives you a +1 bonus to this, this, and that," and I'm frantically trying to scribble down notes on scratch paper, because I won't remember otherwise, and multiple times we've had to go over whether this thing stacks with that other thing.  ARGH!  What a pain.

 

If 5e somehow makes that less headache-inducing, then I'm at least curious.  Alas, I didn't get a chance at Necronomicon to actually PLAY it ... since I was at the next table over, actually RUNNING games most of the time.  ;)  And so far, I don't think I've heard anything about what PF2 might be doing regarding simplifying the buffs-and-debuffs mathwork for tabletop play.  I suppose the whole thing could be solved by TAKING AWAY buffs and debuffs, but in that case, there would go the raison d'etre for the bard.

 

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45 minutes ago, Jordan Peacock said:

 

Comparatively, in our tabletop Pathfinder game, I've been playing a Spell-less Ranger (Kobold Press option our GM allowed), and it's bad enough just trying to remember the pluses and minuses for "Is it a Favored Enemy?  Are we in Favored Terrain?  Am I using Rapid Shot?" (etc.)  But then the Oracle casts Bless and Prayer and rattles off, "It gives you a +1 bonus to this, this, and that," and I'm frantically trying to scribble down notes on scratch paper, because I won't remember otherwise, and multiple times we've had to go over whether this thing stacks with that other thing.  ARGH!  What a pain. 

 

If 5e somehow makes that less headache-inducing, then I'm at least curious.  Alas, I didn't get a chance at Necronomicon to actually PLAY it ... since I was at the next table over, actually RUNNING games most of the time.  ;)  And so far, I don't think I've heard anything about what PF2 might be doing regarding simplifying the buffs-and-debuffs mathwork for tabletop play.  I suppose the whole thing could be solved by TAKING AWAY buffs and debuffs, but in that case, there would go the raison d'etre for the bard. 

5E's design mentality was basically getting rid of all these situational modifiers. Most of it is replaced by the Advantage/Disadvantage system (roll two dice, take the higher or lower roll depending).

The only situational modifiers I can think of that remain are things like cover.

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2 hours ago, Jordan Peacock said:

 

Oh, thank goodness someone still knows of its existence!  :D  I've mentioned my idea in my player groups, and the general response I get is, "Huh?"  With half my group -- the 20-somethings -- that should be expected.  But even among the "old guard" there's only one who knows what I'm talking about, and his experience is limited to the "Epyx" Commodore 64 version.  I started with the PET/CBM 4032 version (32K!  integral green-screen CRT!  TAPE CASSETTE DECK!) from "Automated Simulations" in 1979.  Technically, it wasn't even my game -- it was on loan from one of my dad's co-workers, who was under-whelmed by the game -- so I didn't get to hold onto it indefinitely.  I was inspired by the accompanying pamphlet that had room descriptions (cross-referenced by the room number that would appear when you'd enter a room) -- and, of course, I'd cheat and read ahead on those descriptions, become fascinated by the details, and then my goal became to find the corresponding blocky representation in-game, curious as to what the description foreshadowed.  That is, the room description often provided a clue as to what sort of treasure -- or junk -- might be found in a room, the presence of a trap, or the presence of a secret door on this or that wall.  I'm still not entirely sure about the correlation between rooms and what monster encounters would appear in them.

 

Someone was nice enough to map out the Temple of Apshai game, and then the Upper Reaches of Apshai, and the Curse of Ra.  However, when the "Apshai Trilogy" was released by Epyx for the Commodore 64 and various other platforms, they inexplicably left out the "Lower Reaches of Apshai" (or "Hellfire Warrior"), so that's a bit more obscure -- and I haven't found maps or manuals for that.  I'd love to at least find the top "Lower Reaches of Apshai" level of Hellfire Warrior so I can complete the Apshai dungeon.  (I think I can do without the "Upper Reaches of Apshai" and its killer tomatoes and murderous housewives, though I suppose it might be cute to provide a map of the town resting atop the dungeon, and to somehow give a tip o' the hat to the layouts hinted at in the Upper Reaches levels when depicting the town locations.  Of course, nobody in my group will appreciate it, but ... eh, this is going to take me a long time anyway, and I'll likely be running it online.  Who knows?  Maybe I'll have a different set of recruits by then.)

 

I played the Apshai games on PET, CBM, TRS-80, and Apple ][+. (The Apple was mine.)

 

And the Dungeons & Dragons game on the Atari game machine.... ('We're being attacked by a giant flying seahorse!' 'No, that's a dragon.' 'Are you sure? It sure looks like a seahorse to me....' :lol: )

 

And then came Wizardry and Ultima... and everything changed.

 

The Auld Grump

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Holy crap....

 

d20PFSRD sent out a survey - and one of the questions was whether folks would be interested in seeing a revised PF1, even if it came from somebody other than Paizo....

 

Needless to say, I went 100 on my preference for that option.

 

The Survey

 

Pretty sure that there is some serious backlash about PF2....

 

The Auld Grump

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On 11/9/2018 at 9:49 PM, Sylverthorne said:

 

.. and now I'm tempted to see if I can't ambush him at Paizocon and find out what the *redacted* is going on with this *censored*. If I go, and he's there, that is.

 

Which reminds me, I need to do a thing.

Somewhat late to this party, but I doubt that James will say a damn word about the inner workings of game design and office politics. I mean, unless you get him both in private and drunk, and even then, I would give that low odds.

 

As for infighting going on at Paizo, I am convinced that has been the case for much, much longer than last year. They've burned through a number of creative and business staff, replacing them (from what I can see) with promotions from the fan base, and have decided to shift their target audience rather sharply. I have no wish of getting into a discussion of politics, so I will leave that particular thought right there, but to get back to the infighting, I cannot believe that noone at the company argued against, for example, reprinting books with content removed due to complaints of a handful of online personae.

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9 hours ago, aturriff said:

reprinting books with content removed due to complaints of a handful of online personae.

Not familiar with PF too much, so I'm curious as to what kind of stuff they were removing? 

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10 hours ago, aturriff said:

Somewhat late to this party, but I doubt that James will say a damn word about the inner workings of game design and office politics. I mean, unless you get him both in private and drunk, and even then, I would give that low odds.

 

As for infighting going on at Paizo, I am convinced that has been the case for much, much longer than last year. They've burned through a number of creative and business staff, replacing them (from what I can see) with promotions from the fan base, and have decided to shift their target audience rather sharply. I have no wish of getting into a discussion of politics, so I will leave that particular thought right there, but to get back to the infighting, I cannot believe that noone at the company argued against, for example, reprinting books with content removed due to complaints of a handful of online personae.

 

Actually, if you can find discussion about the Alpha and Beta for the PF1 rules, you will find that Jacobs did, indeed, get into game design in those discussions. He was quite vocal. (And complained, a bit, about the changes made for the final version of PF1 Core. He liked some of the mechanics that were abandoned.)

 

Mostly, though, Jacobs was a good representation of the GM End User - what he talked about was what his players liked or didn't like. Neither looking nor discussing much from the game design standpoint, but rather how the game played.

 

That he is silent... makes me think that his players went beyond 'didn't like' and into 'loathed'.

 

I know that loathing is where Megan was, by the time she gave me that ultimatum. (I went through something very similar with 4e - the dislike didn't lessen, but rather waxed stronger with experience.)

 

The only part of PF2 we embraced was the action economy - and we are dropping that when the PCs next level. (Going back to the familiar, people are okay with the three actions and a reaction, they just don't feel that it is better, so why change?)

 

But, no, not expecting Jacobs to make noises about internal politics at Paizo. That is where real bitterness can be created, and he is wise enough to avoid it.

 

Pretty sure that PF2 is going to be their 4e.

 

The Auld Grump

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4 hours ago, kristof65 said:

Not familiar with PF too much, so I'm curious as to what kind of stuff they were removing? 

Book of the Damned. I do not think this is the time or place to go into further detail.

 

@TheAuldGrump Ah, we were speaking at cross purposes. I was thinking about the internal game design processes and procedures at Paizo, lumped in with the office politics and all. I agree that Jacobs has been quite vocal in the past about principles, ideas, techniques,  table experiences and it is surprising to me as well that he is not commenting on PF2 at all.

 

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33 minutes ago, aturriff said:

Book of the Damned. I do not think this is the time or place to go into further detail.

Ah - with a little research, I think I get the gist of the situation now. 

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I was talking with one of the more active players in the area and he says he is liking how the rules look right now.  We were discussing how Paizo should have Alpha tested the rules and the rulebook presentation before they even released a hard copy to the general public.  These should have gone through a much higher level of scrutiny before they let them free, which has now soured a lot of people on how things were who won't even try the new ones now.

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Too late.

 

We are not going to even look at PF2 - they had one chance to make a good first impression, failed, and made it worse as the playtest continued.

 

The game is not fun. Saying 'ooh! It's a playtest! It doesn't need to be fun!!1!' (which Paizo did) does not make the not-fun-game more enjoyable, or the playtest more effective. It means that they are not listening.

 

It took a very loud majority for Paizo to even make changes to Resonance - and the general consensus was that it needed to be removed. (This fixes a problem that does not exist. So why bother having it?)

 

If d20PFSRD releases a new game based on the PF1 mechanics, we are in.

 

But PF2 can rot.

 

In fact, it is already well on it's way to advanced decay. (Stinks on ice was a description by one of my players. Out of nine people, my opinion was easily the kindest.)

 

There was no facet of the new system that any of us considered an improvement.

 

Though character generation was by far the most disliked.

 

In a way, it is worse than 4e - there was no public playtest for 4e, rather than having a public playtest, then not listening to the public.

 

The Auld Grump

 

*EDIT* Megan just whispered 'they crapped their bed, now they can lie in it'.... a refined and delicate rose, my good lady. ::D:

Edited by TheAuldGrump
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30 minutes ago, TheAuldGrump said:

 

It took a very loud majority for Paizo to even make changes to Resonance - and the general consensus was that it needed to be removed. (This fixes a problem that does not exist. So why bother having it?)

 

Our collective suspicion (that's myself, Mr. Thorne and our gaming group), is that Resonance is a direct result of something happening in PFS. This strikes our group in general as being a big ol' stack of bullpies, with a side of rotgrubs, if true (note; speculation!).

 

But, accounting for speculation, it seems reasonable enough. >.<

 

 

 

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