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knarthex

If you are a vet, or tread head, this is a crushingly beautiful story....

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Imagine

being united

with the Same actual machine

that you had commanded in combat

61 years before.....

will never happen for me

as all the M1s that I crewed have been torn down and rebuilt as A2s.....

Edited by knarthex
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5 hours ago, Ratmaster2000 said:

That's pretty much my story, last I heard my plane I was crew chief on is sitting in the boneyard in Arizona:(

My dad's lucky, his planes either  became gate guards, or are in the national museum...  Not that I'm having any luck finding the white goose on Google today (they gave one of their Hueys or Kiowas a gorgeous "For Freedom" paint job, and once it flew, it went to the museum. 

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4 hours ago, TheAuldGrump said:

My fathe's old submarine was sold to Argentina, and was sunk during the Falklands mess.

 

The Auld Grump

 

Falklands LIBERATION, please.

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15 hours ago, paintybeard said:

 

Falklands LIBERATION, please.

No.

 

Definitely a mess.

 

Argentina put national pride over rationality, never a good idea.

 

The Auld Grump

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I beg your pardon.

 

 I'm being parochial and thinking of it only from my own country's point of view. (Great Britain.)

 

One of the few recent occasions we stuck to our guns, did the right thing and saw a job through to the end.

 

 And I think, for the Islanders, our efforts were a liberation. 

Edited by paintybeard

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It was still a mess... 

 

The bombing missions...  flying 8000Miles in Vulcans...   to take out a runway so that the Argentinians couldn't use it for fast jets...

Exactly how much fuel did the K2 refuelling tankers spend?

(Not counting the fuel that was delivered to the Vulcans)

And how much damage did they do?

To the  runway which was too short for use by fast jets anyway?

 

The Argentinians resupplied the Airfield at night using Hercule transports, but only one was lost to enemy action, and that one was shot down in daytime as it was used to search for the British Fleet.    

 

They landed soldiers on may 21 and established a beachhead, without first ensuring air-superiority.

I assume the soldiers got used to hearing Canberras on bombing runs after a while...  

 

The British lost some ships to bombing, but could have lost more if it hadn't been for the fact that they dropped retarded bombs from a too low altitude, so they didn't have time to arm before hitting the ships.

This changed after BBC World revealed the fact that many bombs didn't go off, in a news broadcast on June 8. 

(Ouch... )

 

The BBC announced that the British had taken Goose Green... before it had happened.

17 British soldiers died in the fight against prepared Argentinian positions.

Had the Argentinians heard the broadcast, or were they just well-prepared and ready to fight anyway?

 

Northwood HQ didn't consider recon of Mt. Kent necessary, and if a Brit. Brigadieer hadn't ignored that view, the Argentinians would have made mincemeat of 42 Commando. 

 

Yeah, if it wasn't a mess I don't know what it was.

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So, What war do you consider not to be a mess? I could easily give examples of similar SNAFU's for just about any conflict you would care to name.

 

 Using a lot of resources to bomb the airfield? Who told you that wars were an exercise in economics?

 

 Would it have been sensible to leave the British troops floating about in vulnerable ships until air superiority is established? With winter drawing on? And no guarantee that the Argentine Air Force will come out and obligingly allow Britain to establish superiority anyway.

 

 The reason Argentine bombed from low altitude was so as to avoid British air cover. They realised that this meant many of their bombs did not fuse correctly, but felt this was an acceptable trade-off against better chance of survival. The BBC's faux pass is not really relevant.

 

It's arguable that many of the British losses at Goose Green were caused by the very aggressive plan adopted by their commander. And it should be noted that the Argentines took more casualties. And more importantly: they lost. It is a modern fallacy that you can fight a war without loses.

 

 So no, by most measures it wasn't a mess. And most importantly it stopped a very unpleasant dictatorship from succeeding in an invasion.

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The bombing runs done with the Vulcan was a desperate  'Hey look, we can bomb anywhere in the world... as long as we can have enough tankers in the air... '

Trust me, it was a bigger show-off than the Doolittle raid, but for much less actual result. 

 

Sure we can mention bigger messes... 

Bay of Pigs... 

Charge of the Light Brigade...

Just about every 'over the wall' charge during the WWI trench battles... 

Attacking Russia and not getting out before winter...

The Battle of Gallipoli.

Daylight bombing raids over Berlin without fighter escort.  

 

Some of it was bad intel, some was armchair generals fighting the previous war... and...  

The British Mark tank was in continued development for years after WWI ended and a better design had been found. The Renault FT(known as the M1917 in the USA) is considered the forefather of all modern tanks. 

 

Sure the Iron Lady called it a victory. 

But there was 6 lost ships. 

Only 6...   

If the Argentinians had been more aggressive in missile launches or used better fusing on the bombs, the war could have ended differently. 

And lets face it, the fighter cover and early warning radar didn't really work because one ship was hit by a bomb dropped by a C-130 Hercules!

 

 

 

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22 hours ago, TheAuldGrump said:

Argentina put national pride over rationality, never a good idea.

 

Oh, I know a lot of countries doing that today. Let's see where that ends.

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15 minutes ago, Gadgetman! said:

 

The bombing runs done with the Vulcan was a desperate  'Hey look, we can bomb anywhere in the world... as long as we can have enough tankers in the air... '

Trust me, it was a bigger show-off than the Doolittle raid, but for much less actual result. 

 

 

I don't have to trust you, I was there...

 

 Apologies to all, I have led this thread too far from knarthex's original post, so this is where I stop.

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1 hour ago, SisterMaryNapalm said:

 

Oh, I know a lot of countries doing that today. Let's see where that ends.

 

And as for it leading to messes....

the-day-the-iraq-war-started.jpg

 

The Auld Grump - the Falklands mess was a mess on both sides, but in defense of the UK... they really weren't expecting Argentina to be stupid enough to try to seize the Falklands. (And Argentina is still trying to claim them - and put such in their constitution....) On the UK side, it was a rushed mess. while on Argentina's side, it as a stupid mess.

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