Jump to content

Boaz

What makes a good war game ?

Recommended Posts

 What makes a good table top war game ... model count, system complexity, special characters, great background fluff, core rules ... what really makes one system more fun to play than another ?

 

 I have noticed several folks are working on a system as finding one that is 'just right' is almost impossible and if you do its tied to a model line you don't have ... I'm one of the folks working on a game system but I'm aiming for model independence ... a solid system that is not tied to any model line but open to use with any force you like ... I just want a good game I can bring any army I want to, and stll have a fair and balanced game with others bringing any army they like ... 

 

 Most of the open army systems I have looked at are too light or over regulated and most don't have a viable point system ... a solid point system might never be perfect but it's the only viable medium for pick up games and turnament play in an open army game system , so I'm starting with ...

 

 A universal point system, based on force type templates.

 

 1d10 based for all randome resolution.

 

 Smooth and straight forward game mechanics , with some special rules but keeping the system simple / fast is a primary goal.

 

Looking for player preferences,  likes/ dislikes , why one system stands out over others, what worked well and what just never seemed to get it right or seemed sooo wrong ... for all of us poking around at what could be ...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think you'll find "one system" that everyone likes. Mainly because we come to this hobby with different expectations, likes and dislikes, and desires about what we want out of the game.

 

For instance, the game store where I regularly play Warlord also hosts Infinity games.  The store owner loves Infinity.  It's tactically flexible, reliant on lots of terrain, and has some good underlying math to help people remember the modifiers.  I personally dislike the game, although I like many of the models.  If I have to stand a separate piece behind my opponents model to determine if I can see it or not, I'm spending too much time with the meta-rules rather than having fun shooting things. 

Plus, I'd have to invest in a new army and new rulebooks; I'd rather spend that money on other stuff.

 

Most games have a large range where you CAN play, but a smaller range where you SHOULD play.  For instance, Warlord can run 250 points to many thousand, but the sweet spot seems to be around 1000 - you get to play a variety of possible models, and the game doesn't bog down too much. 

 

I've become a big fan of Osprey's wargames, like Frostgrave and Gaslands.  They're simple enough for new players, don't require a huge investment in new models, and don't have the huge depth of fluff that something like WH40K has.  Go find treasure in a lost city, got it.  Go shoot up your opponent in an abandoned space station; that's straightforward, and I can use whichever models I have hanging around. 

 

I also dislike tournament games, as I find them to attract a type of player that doesn't have the same set of play goals as me. 

  • Like 5
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And what you are describing sounds like Tomorrow's War by Ambush Alley Games. I believe its out of print but you can still buy it in a pdf version. I'll have to pull out my copy to be sure but your post certainly sounds like that game system.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sounds interesting ... but I don't want to have to have a bunch of every dice type ... I want room for psychics , laser swords , swarms of killer critter , giant robots ... a full range of sci-fi types with a kiss rule system on 1d10 dice for everything. 

 

 I have played WH40K 1st edition through 7th ... played Vor & Void with high hopes for each ... fiddled around with several other systems ... but each dI'd not ether have a viable ipen force point system or solid well rounded rules ... so I'm asking ... 

 

 What things did / do you like in table top games and what things do you not like in tabletop games ?

Edited by Boaz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dislike "universal point systems".  They sound good on the surface, but they are often too much work just to play, and frequently exploited.   Give me a decent selection of units/models that are balanced, and that are easily proxied, like Warlord does. 
I prefer games that can handle multiplayer well - too many games are optimized for two sides, and two sides only.   I also like games that keep both players engaged during a turn. 

Die types don't matter to me nearly as much as simple systems where it's easy to figure out what you have to roll and what you need to succeed or fail. 

I'm another one working on my own system

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like a "universal point system"  ... I like being able to point out a 2000 point force whenever and walk into a game shop or friends house and throw down with any 2000 point force vs whatever they have ... if you pick your force before the scenario is selected or both players build a force to a scenario you should have a fair chance or win / lose ... no point system will be perfect ... but close and getting closer is a solid start ... how else am I going to play a game between my Kulathi and my mars attacks martians ... 3rd person scenario?  Just as unbalanced as a point system ... and less options. 

 

 The game I'm looking for / or to make has a universal point system , A game with the range of 1d10 ... 1d6 = 2,3,4,or 5 for any result ... I want more than a range of 4 ... 1d10 dice , universal point system , Kiss rules ... manditory.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like systems where the standards for "winning" are many and varied. I think of war games in two categories, Morning star VS Razor, Blunt VS Edge, General VS specific. Games like Infinity are great cause it tries to remove questionable moves with a rule that can attempt to explain. Personally I find it like that - but I think that comes from playing with people who try and bend every rule or change them all the time, so My bias may be showing, lol. 

 

I played Frostgrave and as it was very fun to roll dices and get cool things to happen the objective was singular and one of the guys in our group basically Min/Max and found the right wizard and skills to use to get that objective done the fastest... He won every game... I got bored. 

 

Battletech (Classic) although it can be nice and flexible with it's rules it can also be tiresome if you dont have all the rules memorized.

 

On that same note I'm really looking forward to playing Battle System's CORE SPACE. The takes care of character sheets and items with "dashboards" and tokens designed to fit in to spots on that dashboard. Although I have not played it yet, only watched videos on it as it is was a KS, the style seems to take the guess work out of background data management. 

 

 The reason I think this game and the others that are similar work is that they appeal to the ADD nature of people. As well as self serving nature; everyone can get loot, everyone has a third NPC enemy they can attack and everyone can decide if they want to attack another player or help them. As well as having different criteria for winning. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 That was one of the things I really likes in 2nd edition WH40K ... a primary objective, 5 points ... a secondary objective,  3 points ... and kill points,1 per 100 points of targrt ... between the 3 posible scoring options players had choises ... add to this a few terrain scoring options like ammo/full dump secute/blow up ect and you are a few scenario generation dice rolls away from a very involved game.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The perfect game doesn't exist. Each player has their likes and dislikes. Heck, even designers keep fiddling with their own rules because they just aren't quite right yet (in their mind).

 

Me? I prefer open games with point systems, but have several games with dedicated model lines, because sometimes you have to play what everyone else is to get a game. I have been on the hunt for THE mecha game since CAV2 went the way of the dust bin.  I have also started on my own rules.  The same for my 15mm stuff. And for 28mm sci-fi skirmish. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Sergeant_Crunch said:

The perfect game doesn't exist. Each player has their likes and dislikes. Heck, even designers keep fiddling with their own rules because they just aren't quite right yet (in their mind).

 

Me? I prefer open games with point systems, but have several games with dedicated model lines, because sometimes you have to play what everyone else is to get a game. I have been on the hunt for THE mecha game since CAV2 went the way of the dust bin.  I have also started on my own rules.  The same for my 15mm stuff. And for 28mm sci-fi skirmish. 

 

What about CAV Strike Operations?  Bones Kickstarters are continuing and it is ramping up interest for the game again since you can now build a force very, very cheaply.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Boaz  have you researched DBA or Hordes of the Things ?  They were a last century attempt to create rules that were model independent. 

 

I think they are mired in the D6 though. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sergeant Crunch has the right of it. There is NO wargame that will suit all the wargamers. Best you can do is to watch the games being played and figure out what appeals to you and what does not, and whether you're going to have to buy a bazillion figures or not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's kinda the point of the thread ... most of the good model independent game out their are also point system independent ... so I'm making a model independent system with a point system , but me being just me I though getting input on what others thought make a good table top game would be valuable,  to me and others I suspect are in the same boat ...

 

 Me, I got a Vor Growler army, a Syntha /Vasa / Koralon armies from Void, a Mars Attacks martians army and building a Kulathi army as well as galactic alliance (units of mixed aliens) and a cosmic confederation  (mixed of alien specific units) ... and I want to play with them in a game vs whatever army you want to play with ... that game I have not found, so I'm making it , I have looked over a few dozen systems buy their is always something that get in the way of K.I.S.S. ... I like Kiss and think it's the key to a playable game if it is not to simple ... attacker rolls for hits, defender rolls to resist wounds, with some special stuff for area effect, monster/ vehicle toughness , ect ...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/15/2018 at 9:19 AM, Guyscanwefocusplease said:

 

What about CAV Strike Operations?  Bones Kickstarters are continuing and it is ramping up interest for the game again since you can now build a force very, very cheaply.

 

There are reasons I don't play CAV:SO, but to be polite I'll leave it at "I don't like it."

 

On 5/15/2018 at 11:45 AM, TGP said:

@Boaz  have you researched DBA or Hordes of the Things ?  They were a last century attempt to create rules that were model independent. 

 

I think they are mired in the D6 though. 

I've looked into them, still looking. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In my opinion,  unless you're playing tournaments, any rule set can be model independent,  but that may just be me looking for excuses to use the models i have::P:

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Content

    • By Jasper_the_2nd
      I know what you are saying...another WIP by Jasper?  It will never get finished, just like all his other WIPs!
      This is likely true (the first step is admitting you have a problem) but the difference here is I'm not painting these guys currently.  I will eventually....in theory, but that's not why I'm starting the WIP.
       
      So, if you are unfamiliar, or just don't know the name of the book series, A Song of Ice and Fire is the name of the fairly obscure book series they made into that niche little TV series they have to stick on Sunday nights, A Game of Thrones.
      CMoN worked with Dark Sword Miniatures (I expect there were some licensing reasons as DSM has made some spectacular Martin approved figures from the series in the past) to produce a full blown tabletop game based on the books (not the show, so don't expect Tyrion to look like Peter Dinklage). This is a full traditional type tabletop game, with units, movement trays, etc.  Not what I'm used to with CMoN, but they seem to have done a pretty good job with it, and are backing it up with new armies and units coming out any time now.
      Of course, being CMoN AND Game of Throne, the kickstarter did pretty well, and the number of figs that came were....

       
      So,  as mentioned, units and movement trays.  Movement trays are great.  They keep your unit organized and make it much easier to move them around.  They also make facing and alignment for engagements easy.
       
       
      But the problem with them is that people are clumsy.  So far in every game I've played me, or my opponent (but usually me) has dropped a tray.  Usually only an inch or two to the tabletop, but still...

       
      As I'm on an ASOIAF (awesome acronym...) facebook group, this seems to be a common issue.  And everyone uses the common solution that movement tray based minis games have been using for decades. Magnets.
      Back when I played Clan War (and Gencon was still in Milwaukee) we used flat metal sheets for the trays, and stick on squares of magnet on the bases.  But now we live in the future! where itty bitty super powerfully magnets are easily available.
      So today I'm trying out magnetizing this unit of Stark Sworn Swords. 
      Following a post I read a while ago in the Facebook group, I ordered a bunch of 5mm x 1mm magnets.  
      The first thing I do is grab a scratchy something (in this case a triangle file) and scratch an X into one face of a bunch of the magnets (I'll do them all eventually).

       
      Then I picked a test subject and glued one as centered as I could get it.  I'm putting the scratched side into the glue as the scratches might help it adhere better and so I don't have scratches showing on all the bottoms. It doesn't matter as long as you're consistent.

       
      Once it dried a bit I needed to see if this would actually work. As these are pretty thin magnets and imported from a company I'd never dealt with before (but who sell really inexpensive magnets) I wasn't sure how strong they would be.
      So I picked what should be the worst spot on the movement tray, where CMoN put their logo, put the fig in the spot and just held a magnet to see what it would do.

       
      Seemed to lock on pretty good so time to test!

       
      Even with a few good shakes our test Stark seems to have held.  Excellent!
      Time to glue the rest on.

       
      Glue should be dry now after all this typing, but its lunch so I'll see if I can get the movement try magnets glued on after a bit.
       
       
    • By Auberon
      And another Village Attacks mini, this time one of the peasants.  For the moment I'm still following the concept art, but she was also a test for a shade of green mixing Reaper, SC75, and VGC paints.  Details in the WIP.
       


    • By Auberon
      While I did mostly follow the concept art once again, I also used the banshee as a test subject for my recently purchased cool greens triad.  Details are in the WIP.
       

       

    • By Auberon
      As some of you may have read elsewhere, I have been playing Village Attacks and painted the vampire.  When I did I kept close to the concept art because I figured if I ever get someone else to play they'll be looking at the game cards, so the minis should look like what the player expects.  When I looked closely at more of the cards though, it became apparent there was a bit of a problem.  The monsters all have inhumanly pale skin and generally dark color schemes.  The peasants look drab as well. While that is cool as concept art, having a couple 20 minis on the table that are all kind of muted colors is going to blend together more than I would like so a new plan is needed.  That is to stick close to the concept art, but make everything a little more vibrant.  I figure as slowly as I'll be painting these there will be plenty of time to stop for pics, so why not a thread. 
       
      Next I'll be working on the banshee, but first a bit of background.  You see there is another mini I would like to pull down off of the shelf of shame and work on but it has a problem.  I want to paint part of it jade, but the jade paint I have kind of sucks.  I like the color, but the paint itself is super shiny and too translucent.  So I picked up Reaper's cool green triad to try out.  The color swatch showed me Reaper's Jade wasn't quite what I wanted, but real jade comes in several variations of green.  I'll find a use for it somewhere.
       
      Here's a sampling of some of the greens that I have.  You can see the Reaper Jade 09015 is nothing like the VGC Jade 72026, but real Jade comes in both flavors so it's fine.  I have a plan, but first I want to try the Triad out on its own just to see how it looks.
       

       
      Enter the banshee.  Her concept art has her is a very desaturated garment with some green accents.  The new cloth color will instead be the Reaper Triad and then put the green accents beside them.  She will be very green. First 09013.  I had originally painted the cloth but decided to texture the base before I went any further.  It was messy and got some grit on her.  I wasn't very thorough in removing it.
       

       
      Next is 09014.  I just blocked it in to see what it looked like.  It is noticeably warmer than the shadow color.  At first it seems to stand out but...
       

       
      Once the jade is slapped on it really falls back into the shadows, as you can see below.  My highlighting here isn't exactly accurate, but that's why we call it tabletop. There should be a step between 09014 & 09015 that I'll have to mix at some point.  Under normal lighting the green just goes from dark to jade.
       

       
      Actually if you look at the colors there is another problem.  This triad has no pop.  Fortunately pop is easy.  It's called VMC Ivory and solves (almost) all your contrast needs.  Here it's actually mixed with the jade to create a highlight that will actually stand out.
       
      Just remember your painting lesson for today.  VMC Ivory = POP and eliminates those pesky "more contrast" comments.
       

       
      Given that the real purpose here is to learn the triad, I'll be going back to refine things later and see how I can get it to look.  Before that though I want to block in everything else so my green has something to work with.
       
      That though, is a project for tomorrow.
    • By Auberon
      Looks like its been awhile since I last posted up here.  I've been playing Village Attacks for a couple weeks now and decided to give some of the monsters a quick paint.  Today I painted the Vampire.  If the cast would have been better I might have spent some more time on him, but he had enough flaws that I didn't feel it worth the effort.  I did a bit of an experiment with creating textures on the cloak, which worked better in the blue portion than the black.  I didn't quite have the energy to freehand on the veins like in the reference art, but I might go ahead and darken the claws now that I see how it looks.
       

  • Who's Online   36 Members, 4 Anonymous, 0 Guests (See full list)

×