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Chaoswolf

An appeal for civilty

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Well said.

 

FWIW, I've been one of those people who have left for a time because the tone had become unpleasant (or perhaps that simply my perception of the tone had changed to where it was unpleasant). Each time this has happened, it's taken me longer for the negative reaction to subside to the point that participation here is fun again.

 

Specifically for me, when you make a post that assumes your audience will share a controversial opinion of yours and use that as the basis of a statement (technically a logical fallacy called "Begging the Question"), you invite two sorts of responses: direct refutation of your underlying assumption (a directly political post) and comments that assume the opposite point of view (politics by implication). Neither the original post nor these kinds of responses make this a more congenial place. These days, rather than responding, I'm trying to simply report the post and move on. FWIW, I seldom go back to check whether something has been done. When the same people are involved repeatedly, I've also started blocking their comments. 

 

That said, at some point if such a thread of comments continues after being reported, I will assume that the moderators think my impression was incorrect and that the subject is fair game. At that point, I become much more likely to respond -- or take a break from the forums. I don't particularly want to do either.

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9 hours ago, Chaoswolf said:

---It's hard, because we're all separated by hundreds of miles and all we see is an avatar on the screen, but before you type out your response, stop and ask yourself if you'd say that to the person's face. If you wouldn't, you probably shouldn't type it, either.

 

 I second everything you say and I feel that the above sentence is a mantra we should all repeat daily.

 

... But having said that I do feel that there is a risk that if we all perpetually lean over backwards to never say anything that might even slightly offend somebody, somewhere... then nothing gets said.

 

 So I would also say that I wholeheartedly agree with the quote from Voltaire: " I disagree with everything you say, but I would fight to the death for your right to say it."

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This place is like a cool osasis in a baking desert of toxic internet heat. It's "real" in a way that drowning oneself in kitten pictures is not. 

 

I dont think we need to bend over backwards to avoid offending each other, just be mindful of the subjects we bring up, and their appropriateness in the forum. 

 

Otherwise the desert will destroy our pleasant little oasis.

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I try not to take anyone's views personally and try not to offend.  That said, I have views and beliefs that I would like to discuss and explore.  I have never intentionally aimed my remarks against anyone in the forum and, if someone took something personally and let me know, I have apologized.  Most people on the board that I  have seen respond the same way.

 

This group is one of the few havens I have where I am normal and not on the fringe of toleration for my hobbies and beliefs.  I do not wish that to change but I also don't want to have to screen everything I say to ensure I am not offending someone.

 

So please let's see moderation on all sides: opinions are not to be taken personally and Don't make personal attacks against other forum members or their families.

 

Nuff said by me at least

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Well said @Chaoswolf. I haven't been around as much lately for a variety of reasons (mainly because they've finally blocked the site at work :( ) but I have to agree with the sentiment that this is a really great, and encouraging community. There are not many places on the net where a painter of my meager skills would feel comfortable showing off his work and seeking advice from others. Being able to discuss other topics is just icing on the cake. At any rate, hopefully this is just a blip in the radar so to speak and everything goes back to normal.

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There is also a lot of real world friction right now which bleeds into even the calmest pools of humanity.

 

My mentor once gave me some really good advice when dealing with co-workers, but it extends to everyone: 

If you are about to say something because you think you will enjoy saying it, Don t say it, you'll regret it later.

 

Sometimes the pleasure of snark overwhelms me but I do try tondpllow this and I'm normally regret the snark later. ::):

 

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Thx @Chaoswolf I agree. Lets keep politics and sensitive topics in beekeepers. And even there, stay civil. This is in the first place a hobby forum. We can discuss things here. But lets keep it civil indeed. If I ever offended anyone please accept my apology. Lets play nice people. I do not wish to lose your company here. 

 

And maybe if one gets too worked up over an issue. Maybe take a break from the subject. Cool down. Paint  talk hobby and return to that topic later 

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9 hours ago, paintybeard said:

... But having said that I do feel that there is a risk that if we all perpetually lean over backwards to never say anything that might even slightly offend somebody, somewhere... then nothing gets said.

 

 So I would also say that I wholeheartedly agree with the quote from Voltaire: " I disagree with everything you say, but I would fight to the death for your right to say it."

 

10 hours ago, Kangaroorex said:

 That said, I have views and beliefs that I would like to discuss and explore.

 

Exactly. That is what the Beekeepers section of the board is for. It's not the "time-out corner for bad threads," it's a part of the forum where sensitive topics can be more openly discussed. It's there because there are a lot of serious things happening in the world that are important to talk about, but may not mesh well with the more light-hearted discussions of which paintbrush is best or how drybrushing is magic. Not every thread in there is political in nature; I've seen threads discussing sensitive health issues, religion, personal life problems, help writing a letter to a company, etc.

 

If you're unsure whether a particular post or topic might be better discussed in Beekeepers, please don't hesitate to ask a mod! We're here to help and happy to answer questions. ::): I check in on the boards at least a few times a day and usually respond to my PMs and mention notifications (@OneBoot) promptly, especially if they are mod-related.

 

--OneBoot :)

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I've been in Beekeepers.  I found it unpleasant.  There was very little humor there, everyone was so serious about their issues and no one was willing to listen only restate their own ideas.  out here at least, people actually listen, or at least pretend to listen, and consider other viewpoints.  While they are welcome to do so, posting there generates that response and that is not what I am looking for.

 

But I am fine with whatever the group wants.  I come here to hide from the real world, and hang out with friends.  Personal support is also a wonderful thing. 

 

But I still don't see why I can insult the hair style of an actor or other famous person, but cant do it to a politician.

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26 minutes ago, Kangaroorex said:

But I still don't see why I can insult the hair style of an actor or other famous person, but cant do it to a politician.

 

Because those sorts of comments tend strongly toward being used as proxies for political position marking and invite similar responses. That sort of ad hominem attack is often used with the intent of immunizing the commenter from charges of "being political", which arguably makes the tactic worse for comity than open political statements.

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That's the problem though, people aren't listening, they're just biting their tongues and that's why there's so much tension. People will only tolerate "sneaky" jabs for so long. When people throw in comments with only vague references or try to stop people from disagreeing with their opinions by saying "oh no, don't YOU get this sent to Beekeepers by disagreeing with the things we've already said" it's very transparent what the motivation there is. Just like it's obvious what the motivation behind making fun of a politician's hair over a rando actor is. (I'd disagree with making fun of the rando actor as well - I don't think you should be making fun of anyone, whether you know them or not, if they're not in on the joke.)

 

Moreover, it's not "whatever the group wants" - it's Reaper's house and their rules. They created Beekeepers, so it's their wishes that people are choosing not to respect and are provoking people that do choose to respect them in the process. If Beekeepers is unpleasant, that doesn't mean that anyone has any right to decide to do as they please instead. Choosing civility is about respect for both Reaper as our hosts and the people around you. This is a neutral space; that's what it's meant to be and that's what it should remain.

 

If we were discussing these things in person, sure it would be far more understandable for things to just slip out. God knows what sort of magical technology we'd need for censoring certain words in that case. But we're not talking about letting things slip while you're speaking. When you sit down at a keyboard and start typing, get all the way through typing and then hit the submit button, you are making a conscious choice, one that so many people on this forum are fully capable of taking responsibility for. I think the spirit of this thread is for people to more carefully consider what they're typing and that's not an unreasonable request by a long shot.

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@Guindyloo is right; mistakes are gonna happen, and people will get upset, if only because communication via text is imperfect. You can't see facial expressions, or hear the tone of a person's voice to help you determine if they're trying to be comedic, or nasty. That can't really be helped. What CAN be helped is doing the stuff I outlined in my original post. THAT's what I'm asking people to be more aware (and careful) of. Politics stays in BeeKeepers, nasty comments don't need to get made, etc.

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Eh. There might be room for folks to mellow out here, honestly. I don't say that to be a jerk but because it's just not right or healthy at all to play police-raid on people's speech to such a degree. I'm on record previously regarding this site's being one of the most over-moderated I've regularly visited, and sometimes it hits questionable heights. I feel like this might be one of those moments.

 

Was Reaper's policy previously that no mention of disagreeable portions of reality is allowed in the general forums? I was under the distinct impression that was not the case. Is that where it is now? It seems defensible, at least, to draw a line in the neighborhood of full-on political discussions' and so on being swept to the danger zone, but just making mention of broccoli that's happening in the world... eh.

 

I think it's fair to say I'm as close to a trumpster as is to be found around here, and I think it's pitiful, frankly, that something like a stray post making fun of the God Emperor's glorious hair should raise alarms. Likewise, Lord knows I disagree categorically with pretty much anything Pingo has to say about politics, but to get all worked up because she and Crowley and whoever else dropped some opinions about ongoing situations seems a little much to me, tbh (with apologies for using y'all as an example, but that's just where I saw this the other day or whenever).

 

I've not been present for any personal attacks or whatnot, so I can't speak to that, but give folks some room to breathe, is my general advice and/or opinion. Yes, this is a nice, friendly site, and that's great, but I actually think the way in which people here compartmentalize and censor their thoughts and experience gives rise to a certain level of low-key, kinda passive-aggressive animosity that's, like, way worse than having a little scrap over something now and then. It's okay to disagree, and it's good to do so openly and politely. Sometimes, at least. (There are a couple people here who I think would be worlds happier if they just teed off on me and my bullbroccoli now and then. I'd be all for it--I love the harsh banter, anyway--but, well. Forum guidelines, and all. Don't get yourselves in trouble, I guess.)

 

It's good to be kind and respectful to others in your speech, of course, but the other half of civility that I think may be getting unfortunately ignored here is that one should be kind and respectful as a listener, as well. I think if we allow each other the space to be human everyone will be much happier.

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