Jump to content


Photo

Paint product descriptions- more information?


  • Please log in to reply
22 replies to this topic

#1 PaintByNumbers

PaintByNumbers

    Enlightened

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 376 posts

Posted 03 July 2006 - 03:19 AM

I've cruised the forums several times but I would like some 'organized' information about the products.

What is the difference between the MSP and RPP - I know the packaging is different, and the colors are not quite all the same. Is it in brush feel, or transparency-- what really differentiates them?

How many ml per bottle for each?

How many/which Triads are in the Sets?

54 Triads is a lot. Which ones comprise a "basic" and then "comprehensive" palette; which are designed for special needs (bone?)

How many bottles in each set?

How were the colors in the sets chosen to be useful subsets out of the entire range?

Are all the colors opaque or are some translucent?

Are they all blended colors or are some of them pure artists "standard" color pigments?

How should the paints be modified to use different painting styles - Dallimore opaque 3 layer, translucent layering, drybrush highlighting, old fashioned 15mm stain painting, etc? Aside from dilution ratios with water, what kind / brands of mediums do you add to get the paint to behave appropriately for the style (glaze, retarder, flow aid, etc) ?

I'm a white-prime, basecoat & wash type painter. I miss Partha Primer; it had the best tooth for taking stains.

I'm looking for the range of paint which will best make up for my shortcomings in selecting harmonious color schemes and my inability to visualize how to mix/shade/tint to get the next step in hue or chroma.

I do historical minis in army quantities. We don't need no stinkin' eyeballs ;)

Partha Paints had some great colors and especially the quality of looking good with a stain- leather & a couple of the earth yellows followed by Burnt Umber gives a wonderful range of tones.

Golden Liquid Acrylics have an 8 color basic pallet that has translucency, but they are glossy and I'm not enough of an artist to mix colors by design.

I have a few Rotring acrylic inks and they cover very nicely but sometimes don't have enough "stick" and flow away.

Windsor & Newton inks are useful but I wish they weren't glossy.

Howard Hues is like painting with snot, doesn't thin successfully, and the horse colors have no life (too much matt medium).

#2 smokingwreckage

smokingwreckage

    Gawdlike!!

  • Bones Supporter
  • 10921 posts

Posted 03 July 2006 - 05:16 AM

RPP is the old line. It's OK, comes in screwtop jars. MSP are more densely pigmented, have better flow and don't dry quite as fast.

US measurements are 3/4oz for the RPP and 1/2oz for the MSP.

I find that MSP are excellent for shade-mid-highlight without thought :)

Naturally, he died because a wizard exploded.


#3 Vaitalla

Vaitalla

    Godlike

  • Reaper User
  • 2804 posts

Posted 03 July 2006 - 09:19 AM

Whew, what a novella...this'll be fun! :lol:

First off, hello PBN, thanks for posting, and welcome to the forums! I've covered a lot of this info before but it's not necessarily in one place...perhaps a nice Mod could pin this for me after I've answered all your questions. ::): I'm going to just go down the list and address each paragraph of yours, though it looks like there's a little overlap. I'll try not to be too redundant! Without further ado:

Difference between MSP and RPP: RPP is the old line, does not come in triads, comes in pots not dropper bottles, is dead matte in most cases but does have a little bit of a texture to it. MSP is the new line, formulated by a painter (me) for painters. It comes in triads, most of which are organized via shadow-midtone-highlight, but a few are "like colors" triads, such as the off-whites, liner colors, or clear brights. MSP's have Flow Improver already added to the paint itself, so they flow very well, and actually thin fine with just water but you can still mix in other additives if you like. ::): They are extremely smooth. They vary in transparency just as artists' colors do, influenced by pigment. The paint bases they use are very high-quality and they have excellent adhesion. Certain colors may have a little life (satin as opposed to matte) varying again by the pigment properties, though as time goes on we're working them all closer to flat. ::): I'm not a paint chemist by background so there was a big learning curve for me on these!

SM has already answered your volume question. The MSP's are advertised at half an ounce, as dropper bottles are a lot smaller than the pots, though the droppers do tend to preserve the paint better than pots.

The sets are organized chronologically by release date rather than by theme, so there are varied colors in them (as opposed to Vallejo where you might find a "fantasy colors" set or what have you). The first 108 colors (36 triads) I regard as the basic set, but you do miss out on a lot of excellent natural browns, ochres, and historically-geared colors which we worked into in later releases. The first 54 (18 triads) are a good starter. There should be a PDF pinned at the top of this forum with color swatches for most of the paints currently available, though the best representative chart would be the ones printed in our catalog, Casketworks, as I check and adjust those according to the actual printing results so that they will be as close as possible to the actual paint color.

If you look at the names of the triads in our online store, I've tried to keep them fairly descriptive--bone triads, in other words, are named appropriately. ::): They also have the swatches right in front of them in the store, which since they are meant to be printed are CMYK; close, but printed results will be more color-accurate. Again, the first set of 108 I consider the basic set, but you might be better off taking a look at the paint swatches for the specific triads and picking and choosing which colors best suit your needs. Eventually I would like to set up some "mini-sets" which are themed (horse colors, German WWII colors, skintones) but for now we just honestly don't have the time. If there's specific subject matter that you're looking to cover just ask on the forums and myself and anyone else can easily spare the time to list off a few specific triads. ::):

Sets tend to be organized in pretty large chunks. If you check the online store it will tell you that we have three sets. Set one is the first 108 colors (by item number), set two and three split the first 108 into smaller chunks. As of yet we haven't put out the next releases in sets because we don't have the second (and final) 108 paints completely released until December.

All of that said...if I were just starting out I would pick up some of the first triads for basic colors and then pick up the Clear Brights triads. The first triads we were going for coverage over brilliancy of hue, whereas the Clear Brights are pure pigments in an almost transparent base. Getting both gives you the best of both worlds, and adding a couple of drops of a Clear to one of the standard colors will brighten it without losing coverage.

As implied in the above, the paints vary in translucence in accordance with the pigments used, so brighter colors will tend to be more transparent than muted ones.

Re: artists' colors...we don't have an equivalency chart for specific matches, but I did aim for a few standard artist color matches in the line; Palomino Gold = a pure Yellow Ochre, Chestnut Brown = Burnt Sienna, and Clear Viridian = Pthalocyanine Green. The Clear Brights are the truest mixing colors, as they have no white added for coverage at all (so what coverage there is varies entirely based on pigment).

Re: techniques...MSP's should cover in two smooth coats over white primer when thinned to a 3:1 or 4:1 paint to water consistancy for basecoating. With their smoothness and the fact that we don't add a ton of white in for coverage they excel when used in layering techniques. As the paint tends toward being thin and smooth they're probably not the best for drybrushing. They are fantastic for washes and glazes, especially if you add a few drops of the MSP Matte Sealer into the mix (acts as a Matte/glazing Medium). With wet-blending, your mileage may vary; they tend to aquire a sheen when subjected to lots of slow-dry-type additive, but I have no problems blending with them. If you don't want to use the MSP additives you should be able to use most other brands with the paints barring Tamiya and Golden (I seem to recall specific issues with those) but I've used most craft and art store retarders, mediums, and flow improvers with them with no ill effects. For more specific technique/dilution advice, please ask in another thread and we can get down to real nuts and bolts! ::D:

Hmmm...I think that's about it...if I've forgotten anything or you need me to get more specific, toss another post out there and I'll attack it when I get a sec. Also, thanks for being interested and for asking such good questions! I talk often about transparency in miniature paints being a good thing, but in this industry there are a lot of people you have to try hard to convince that coverage isn't everything. :;):

--Anne ::):

I've cruised the forums several times but I would like some 'organized' information about the products.

What is the difference between the MSP and RPP - I know the packaging is different, and the colors are not quite all the same. Is it in brush feel, or transparency-- what really differentiates them?

How many ml per bottle for each?

How many/which Triads are in the Sets?

54 Triads is a lot. Which ones comprise a "basic" and then "comprehensive" palette; which are designed for special needs (bone?)

How many bottles in each set?

How were the colors in the sets chosen to be useful subsets out of the entire range?

Are all the colors opaque or are some translucent?

Are they all blended colors or are some of them pure artists "standard" color pigments?

How should the paints be modified to use different painting styles - Dallimore opaque 3 layer, translucent layering, drybrush highlighting, old fashioned 15mm stain painting, etc? Aside from dilution ratios with water, what kind / brands of mediums do you add to get the paint to behave appropriately for the style (glaze, retarder, flow aid, etc) ?


  • Pingo, Last Knight and ced1106 like this

"I have some acetone in the car if you need it." -- Jennifer Haley


#4 PaintByNumbers

PaintByNumbers

    Enlightened

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 376 posts

Posted 03 July 2006 - 11:14 AM

Great answers!

Why do you want to achieve a matte formulation instead of satin? Healthy fur isn't dead matte. Is it a model scale issue?

Hmm, I've got the Golden additives.

A thread on which Triads would be a good set for horses & natural-material clothing would be of interest to me. Think Ancients.

How does the viscosity of the 'pure' paint facilitate different painting styles, as opposed to the super-thick Vallejo MSC?

I recall mostly pots at the Historicon painting class last year. Maybe you should resupply the crew with MSP! And will any of the vendors sell them there?

#5 smokingwreckage

smokingwreckage

    Gawdlike!!

  • Bones Supporter
  • 10921 posts

Posted 03 July 2006 - 06:40 PM

Matte is demanded by professional and competition painters, at least in part because it prevents the photographic lights from reflecting and ruining pictures of the miniatures. I use a flow improver that adds a little bit more gloss and sometimes seal with a "matte" sealer that is actually satin.

Naturally, he died because a wizard exploded.


#6 Vaitalla

Vaitalla

    Godlike

  • Reaper User
  • 2804 posts

Posted 06 July 2006 - 09:43 AM

Heya! I'll answer the horse colors and such in another thread later, rather than add to this one now that it's been stickied (thanks O Glorious Mods!). ::):

With the life vs. matte question it's both a question of scale and a question of photography, as SW says. Dealing with very small objects which typically thus can't have "in scale" fur effects sculpted (i.e. horses being sculpted as smooth) you can't always depend upon the sculpt and actual light source to do the work for you as far as realistic lighting effects and highlights go. Thus, most of the pros I know will suggest the fur texture and highlights with paintwork instead. When you've got highlights painted on to suggest the sheen of the coat, then reflectivity in the paint makes it harder to see all the work you put in and may conflict with the painted effects.

I don't mind a little life in my paint normally, but if I'm painting something which has to be photographed then I go crazy if I can't get it matte. Luckily, the amount of sheen in most MSP formulations can be taken down to matte quite easily by the application of a brush-on matte sealer or a spritz of Testor's Dullcote. ::):

--Anne

Great answers!

Why do you want to achieve a matte formulation instead of satin? Healthy fur isn't dead matte. Is it a model scale issue?

Hmm, I've got the Golden additives.

A thread on which Triads would be a good set for horses & natural-material clothing would be of interest to me. Think Ancients.

How does the viscosity of the 'pure' paint facilitate different painting styles, as opposed to the super-thick Vallejo MSC?

I recall mostly pots at the Historicon painting class last year. Maybe you should resupply the crew with MSP! And will any of the vendors sell them there?


"I have some acetone in the car if you need it." -- Jennifer Haley


#7 tbrehaut

tbrehaut

    Rabble Rouser

  • Bones Supporter
  • 89 posts

Posted 28 July 2007 - 10:03 AM

What is Liner?

Actually, what's the difference between the Clear colours, Inks, Liners, etc. I'm assuming they're different consistencies/pigmentations/coverages, but would like to know more and suggestions for when/how to use them.

Thanks!

(So far I'm really impressed with the wealth of information on this board and the pleasant, helpful atmosphere!)

#8 Aryanun

Aryanun

    Darth Bonk

  • Members
  • 7251 posts

Posted 28 July 2007 - 10:07 AM

This is my take on the differences. I may be wrong, so I'm sure I'll be quickly corrected.


The Clears are translucent colors used to increase vibrancy of that particular color.

Liners are just a very dark color, like a blackened color of that shade. Generally used for "blacklining," but some people use them for shading.

Inks are a very thinned paint, often glossier than regular paint, and used for filling in and extra shading.
Posted Image Wielder of the original BONK! ™

Kheprera - main character on Freedom; global chat handle is @Kheprera - City of Heroes, give me a shout!

"If I fail, they write me off as another statistic. If I succeed, they pay me a million bucks to fly out to Hollywood and fart." --- George A. Romero

"Hulk bash Iron Man face!" --- my son, Thomas, at seeing Iron Man #19

"If I had any dignity, that would have been humiliating" --- Adam Savage from Mythbusters

#9 tbrehaut

tbrehaut

    Rabble Rouser

  • Bones Supporter
  • 89 posts

Posted 29 July 2007 - 11:33 AM

Thanks! That helps.

#10 Vaitalla

Vaitalla

    Godlike

  • Reaper User
  • 2804 posts

Posted 30 July 2007 - 08:33 AM

Clears: Pure pigment in a transparent base, the brightest of paints, good for adding to other colors to brighten them up or for putting a bright wash/glaze over an area to brighten it.

Liners: Very near-black colors in a more fluid base than normal (so they require less thinning) and with extra flow improver added. Can be used like normal paints but excel at dark-lining techniques.

Inks are a different animal; they are not paint. They do require some extra thinning, though they are more watery than paints. They are made to be put on in a wash for quick shading, and excel at shading metallic paints, where the tendency of some colors to "bleed" through layers of color is not an issue (they can't bleed through actual metallic flake like they can through a layer of acrylic paint!). Many people prefer them for shading because, whereas a paint wash will lighten in color as it dries, an ink wash will retain its deep color.

--Anne ::):

"I have some acetone in the car if you need it." -- Jennifer Haley


#11 PaintByNumbers

PaintByNumbers

    Enlightened

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 376 posts

Posted 13 February 2008 - 09:21 PM

Noticing that the color swatches online seem to be the mass tone. I'm getting very much different colors when I thin them as is necessary to make them flow; dark browns are coming out much lighter.

Why not put up some images showing the undertones?

#12 cutebutpsycho

cutebutpsycho

    Purple Pirate Fairy Princess

  • Moderator
  • 2359 posts

Posted 13 February 2008 - 09:42 PM

Please keep in mind that monitors don't all show the colors the same. Just saying......

#13 PaintByNumbers

PaintByNumbers

    Enlightened

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 376 posts

Posted 23 March 2008 - 10:35 PM

Here's an idea for Reaper management. I _mean_ to create a reference chart of the MSPs with the mass tone, undertone, & tint for each color. But doing it neatly & comprehensively puts me off.

Suppose Reaper put up printable "blank" sheets, printed only with the color names & numbers and nice 1" grids to color inside? A series of 8x11 sheets that can be 3 hole punched.

If I had the blank sheets, then every time I used a color anyway, I could (wait for it...) Paint By Numbers and fill in the blanks for that color.

#14 pae

pae

    The All-Seeing Eye

  • Artists
  • 5162 posts

Posted 23 March 2008 - 10:43 PM

And this isn't something that you could do yourself?

#15 smokingwreckage

smokingwreckage

    Gawdlike!!

  • Bones Supporter
  • 10921 posts

Posted 16 February 2011 - 11:42 PM

So.... what's HD now?

EDIT: SORRY! It's a super covering basecoat line. AWESOME.

Naturally, he died because a wizard exploded.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users