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#31 shakhak



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Posted 21 August 2009 - 12:45 PM

It says "within 2 inches", so I always played that it the entire model has to be within 2". So giant models would have to be in B2B with the summoner. That could use some clarification though.

My estimates were high for the daisy chain, but I was thinking of doing it with multiple troops. Activating everything as a single troop would land you a strong focused attack.
Against a faction like the elves it can be twice as brutal. Alot of their models are glass cannons, taking them on in such a way would be fun for the darkspawn player.

Some things to keep in mind when using the Summoning tactic, so other Darkspawn players can make use of it:
  • Think about your initiative card count. Don't be afraid to put a few archer leaders out to boost your initiative card count, and then summon their soldiers into other troops.
  • If you Daisy Chain your entire army, don't spread to far out. Make sure to get your support bonuses and go for the softer expensive models. Mages and Rogues make delicious snacks for demons.
  • Make sure you have multiple Summoners and make sure they can take a hit. If you mess up on initiative and your enemy takes out your summoners before they summon, you can lose a game pretty quickly.
  • Remember to use both of your actions once summoned.

A cool RTS from one of the designers of Warlord 2.0 Cairn


#32 Stubbdog


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Posted 21 August 2009 - 02:22 PM

Shak, Under normal circumstances you are correct. Summoning is powerful but limited, both because they have to summon within so close of the summoning model, and also cause they only get one action once they get there.

But, the power of the Demon "daisy chain" is that it doesnt matter if they have to summon really close, they get two actions. So, the newly summoned model can appear within 2, then move its full move and then do a summon of its own.

But, you are correct on a couple of points too. You are limited to only summoning 3 models each. So, even though you can still end up with a good number of models getting across the table quickly, you will be limited in terms of how many can actually attack when they do get there.

Just using the standard table and deployment and in our case going to use Imps as the "transportation" models:

1 moves once 8 inches and summons 3 at 10 inches
3 move once to 18 inches and summons 6 at 20 inches
6 can either charge in and attack or summon more.

So, in that scenario the demon player has to work out his numbers carefully to figure out just how many models to start with on the table such that he has the maximum number of "attacking" models on the other side for the total number of models he has. In the scenario above, if those 6 get across and have to decide between attacking and summoning, it can throw the whole plan out of whack.

Now, if the enemy goes first and moves inside of 20 inches such that those 6 models can be summoned in btb, then they can turn around and summon and attack and thereby gain a huge difference in the total number of attacking models involved.

Of course, it is also true that if the enemy starts out backed up or spreads out in different directions or does any number of different things, it can also throw it all out of whack.

But, its still fun, because it makes both players approach the game in a completely different way and that is why it works and is fun.

#33 Gus Landt

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 02:30 PM

Just FYI, the 2" is measured from edge of base to edge of base. Summoned models do not need to be completely within that 2".
“There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, "All right, then, have it your way” - C.S. Lewis "I'm not sure God wants us to be happy. I think he wants us to love, and be loved. But we are like children, thinking our toys will make us happy and the whole world is our nursery. Something must drive us out of that nursery and into the lives of others, and that something is suffering." - C.S. Lewis

#34 jdripley


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Posted 21 August 2009 - 08:51 PM

All of this essentially boils down to an issue of practically guaranteeing yourself first strike. I think in the situation that brought this up - demons doing a summoning chain down a narrow corridor and finally planting Rauthuros square in the doorway where he lays waste to an elf army that by all accounts was not constructed to go up against something so huge and powerful as Rauthuros - the situation was amplified by the terrain primarily, and secondarily by the composition of the opposing force.

I think that it's a neat tactic, and can grant a Darkspawn player some interesting advantages. But the enemy still gets defensive strikes.

Here are some more tactics that I believe are more lethal than the Dreaded Darkspawn Demon Drop:
-Burrowed models can essentially charge past any defensive screen and surface next to a choice target. With the exception of a very few spells, the Burrowed model is all but immune to interference of any kind.
-Fliers, like Burrowers, can attack at will. They can, of course, be targetted by ranged and magic attacks. Note also that both Fliers and Burrowers can have their choice of target denied if an opponent forms a ring of defensive models around the choice target.
-The Leap SA allows cavalry models to ignore intervening enemies as they simply charge past and skewer their intended target. Try this on for size:
Sennet Net'merrew, Atifa, Ibrahim, 10 Khamsin Lancers. 479 points. They charge 14 inches towards whatever in the world they want to. There are models with longer charge ranges, but not many. Atifa can cast Burst of Speed giving herself and most likely four other models the ability to disengage and get themselves 12 inches away from the action after their charge and attacks (two move actions grants the Runner bonus of 2" extra movement on the second move action). So like the Dreaded Darkspawn Demon Drop, you have a high probability of getting the first attack in. You've also got First Strike on ten models. You're also attacking with 12 models (thirteen if Atifa decides to hold off on the spells and use Reach to help out in melee). But there are still a boatload of archers with longer ranges than that trick, and most spellcasters can reach out and wreck your day with a greater threat range (movement plus spell range). The difference is just that the Darkspawn can hypothetically begin outside of that threat range and end with a handful of models attacking.

I don't think my examples disprove the power of the Dreaded Darkspawn Demon Drop, but I think they put it into a little bit of healthy comparison and contrast. Yes it's sweet to be able to leap your force forward. No it isn't the only army that has tricks to move forward quickly. Yes if you end up with a model like Rauthuros doing the attacking you will do some serious damage. And yes, your non-summon models which are hoofing it from your DZ will not be in the best position to support your X number of Summoned models which zapped forward to bloody my army's nose. And yes I will dedicate the entire might of my army to erradicating the advanced models before turning my attention towards the Isiri and sundry other icky underdark thingies in your army.

So obviously my stance is, sweet trick but it's not going to be a game winner unless you've got some other sweet tricks up your sleeve. Honestly, I'm more worried about the tactic being used mid/late game when my defensive screen is tied up and the Darkspawn player uses it to slingshot some Demon Warriors behind my line to my squishies.

Also, Stubbdog, why not have a line of single models advancing and summoning, until you reach the enemy line, and at that point simply summon the big hitters who take an action each to bring in the rest of the demons all surrounding the target troop? Then everything in melee takes their fight action. But again, as a counter example, a player who knows what they are doing will see the Darkspawn opposition, ask if the enemy is playing Demonic Conclave, and will turtle up their troops such that the Darkspawn player still only attacks the defensively oriented models, same as if they had hoofed it across the battlefield old-school style.
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#35 Warwick



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Posted 21 August 2009 - 09:05 PM

Wildbill and I are playing again tomorrow. He's bring the demons. I'm bringing something else. Straight up normal game of Kill 'EM All in five turns or less. I'll post the battle report in another topic and let this thread get back to other Darkspawn business.

#36 abhorrious



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Posted 18 April 2010 - 01:58 AM

hey all, newbie here. A friend of mine recently introduced me to Warlords, and I've decided to go with Darkspawn. He was helping me with my armylist and mentioned a way to get both witch and Rauthuros in your army, but, he wasn't sure on the rules. I scoured the rulebook and haven't found anything. My question is, how? They're both warlords, and from how I understood the rules, you can only have one. Is there a summon spell or something I'm missing? Or was this a 1.0 ability?

#37 ViciousPanzer



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Posted 18 April 2010 - 04:17 AM

THe Witch Queen can be given the Crescent of Bile equipment upgrade which allows her to field Rauthuros as a unique solo. Since he becomes a solo he can't field any troops under his command and neither does he gain his warlord ability since he is technically not a warlord at that point but a solo. I'm not certain on that last bit but I believe that's how it works in regards to his warlord ability. I am completely certain about the crescent of bile bit though. ::):

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#38 wildger



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Posted 18 April 2010 - 07:38 AM

Another way of looking at it is that Crscent of Bile turns Rauthuros into a Uniq Solitaire (his new rank) and he can be summoned by the Witch Queen (P.70) In this case, Rauthuros' original rank of Warlord is replaced by Uniq Solitaire and should be treated accordingly.

#39 abhorrious



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Posted 18 April 2010 - 08:15 AM

awesome! thanks a bunch! now I can put my shopping list together and get my army.

#40 Wowahboy



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Posted 02 May 2010 - 03:03 PM

I think that you guys are missing one important point. Summoned demons under the Demonic Conclave Doctrine using Gate get 2 actions after being summoned. So their capabilities are not as restricted as you are making it seem. There is no need for a long string of unused models, either.

Troop 1
Rahl, Duke of Pain x 1
Maugrathoth x 1
Demon Warrior x 3
Ice Demon x 1
Demon Imp x 2

Flask of Hellfire
Luck Stone

Troop 2
Guros x 1
Maugrathoth x 2
Demon Warrior x 2
Ice Demon x 1
Demon Imp x 2

Troop 3
Marilith x 1

Troop 4
Marilith x 1

1000 Points

Start with only 1 Demon Imp on the board, 3" on so no shooty enemy Rangers can get the initiative, advance and kill it on the first turn. When it is your turn, advance the Demon Imp 8" (11" on) and summon another Demon Imp 2" forward (14" on) and move the summoned Demon Imp 8" (22" on). Summon a third Demon Imp 2" forward (25" on) and move it 8" (33" on). At this point, summon 3 models on at 36" and they each summon 3 more, etc. All models summoned after the Imps can summon and attack. Plus, you are at the enemy deployment zone now. You are in your enemy's kitchen at a cost of only 3 Demon Imps (45 points). Now release Hell.

The Maugrathoths can start out flying to get past enemy models or attack flyer(s). Summon Mariliths. Use Flask of Hellfire.

Almost unfair.

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#41 JeffyBaby



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Posted 02 May 2010 - 09:18 PM

It's a nice gimmick, but I wouldn't recommend it against Nefsokar.

Khamsin Archers can turn the Imp into a pin cushion first turn. 4" Ranger special move + 10" Burst of Speed extra move + 10" Move + 18" RA range = 42" first activation victory for Nefsokar.

#42 Wowahboy



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Posted 02 May 2010 - 11:51 PM

Good point. I am sure that there are plenty of counter-gimmicks and armies that my example would not work against. There are also plenty that it would work against. I was just trying to point out that the points being made in the thread did not appear to me to be based on the current abilities of the Darkspawn. I do not play them myself.

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#43 Humansquish



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Posted 04 May 2010 - 11:43 PM

I haven't played Warlord 2 yet and was hoping those that have could give me advice on building an army for Reapercon. I'm looking for a "general" list not something gimmicky like the daisy chain. I also expect to face a fair amount of cavalry so a list that does well against that would be nice. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

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#44 Greywolf



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Posted 15 May 2010 - 10:19 AM

with the daisy chain cav is a non issue. you just plop your unit in b2b and you're taking away the power of cav like 1st strike. then at that point you're fighting a model that = a crimson knight still dangerous but you're in control.

#45 Ddot



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Posted 20 January 2011 - 12:56 AM

just to delve deeper into Darkspawn play, what are your opinions on Pain Cage Doctrine?

My initial thought is that it might be workable with even demon-heavy armies. The ability to gain pain token bonuses on heavy hitters (pick your favorite here) should not be ignored, and the potential for making magic much more effective would make it a no-brainer for certain lists (especially those with the Witch Queen and Dkuhl in the lead troop.)

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