wrightjd

I'm positing here my concern over the FAs of the army of aurellius; I will be play testing them throughout this week.

OOOO! I like that. I like that ALOT. I'd also like to see a few more IC models to make it a lil more fleshy, but I'm sure that'll happen sometime in the future. Agreed. Considering the lack of Anointed models (Krissy, Majeda, Battle Nuns, Hospitaliers), I think that would serve the army ALOT better. Then you could re-create the cover of the faction book! I agree, that's actually a faction I could really get into.

There is no ranged unit in the Army of Aurellius beyond Valandil, so therefore there is no firing into melee combat. I don't disagree that Fearless provides a SLIGHT tactical advantage, but it's nothing to write home about. The Wolf isn't a huge deal, you still pay for the cost of the mini (though adepts are, techinically speaking, slightly cheaper than an equivalent grunt). And never receiving a shaken token is all well and good, but with the high discipline of the crusaders anyways it's almost an after thought. Also I do believe Gus said that the Army of Aurellius keeps their fearless even in the face of the necropolis SA. And we have to forget smite, because smite only applies to 1/3 of the games you will ever play. In fact, where I am, there are VERY few evil armies and I'm one of them with Necropolis. I think other than that there's 1 player with Razig/Darkspawn(who also plays Reptus), 1 with Razig, 1 with Overlords (who also has nefsokar and is building elves). I rarely will ever have the chance to field an army of aurellius to take advantage of the smite evil. Also I just want to point out that you're talking about some very situational things. I've only played 2 full games with the new rules, but neither army has had a fearsome model or a fear or scare spell. There has been 1 shock model. The entire faction ability can be removed by how your opponent builds their army. What happens to the FAs if you find yourself fighting a first strike non evil army ALL of the faction abilities are completely negated.

I don't really like to nitpick, but do you really think Armor of the Faithful is all that good? Sure fearless is nice, but how often will it really come into use? Deflect/1 is very nice, don't get me wrong, but how often will fearless REALLY be used? When you withdraw you still take the shaken tokens, so the real benefit is only against fearsome models. I mean it's a cool little perk, but I highly doubt it's going to change anything in play, especially since I really see people take more than 2 or 3 fearsome models. Here's the real question I ask? Can anyone here actually make the claim that Judgement / Armor of the faithful as they stand (remember Judgement doesn't auto coup now either) even hold a candle to the elves special ability (Sure shot for everyone) or the reptus FA (reroll missed defensive strikes , that's like paying for part of a holy weapon on every single model)? Here's a break down for you, if you'd really like to see one: Let's base each faction ability strictly on the amount of damage tracks gained by faction ability or taken away: First to consider is the elves, with sure shot and basically deflect/2. So with deflect/2 all ranged models are going to have a 20% less change to hit elven models. So if, in the course of a round say, you take 8 shots (marksman, whatever) you're talking about gaining 1.6 damage tracks per round. Over the course of a 6 round game this will amount to about 8 gained damage tracks, not too huge. This bonus will also always apply, because no one will ever need a natural 10 to hit an elf and if they're rolling against one of the few models on the board that needs a natural 10, they're throwing their strategy to luck anyways, but there would be no net gain if a natural 10 is already required. The next part of their FA is Sure Shot, the major component. These are just going to be estimates; I don't really have numbers to back them up. Let's say an average elf player, in a 1501 game, brings 6 elven archers, 3 elven rangers, Selwynn, and an elven sniper. I don't think that's outrageous and we're also leaving out Eawod. Here the stats are going to get a bit more complicated, but here's what we're looking at for each model: This is going to assume an average DV of 11 against ranged (which I feel is a bit high). Chance to hit for an elven archer: P(Hitting) = P(rolling 6,7,8,9,10 on a 10-sided die) = .5 Chance to hit for an elven archer w/Sure Shot: P(hitting) = P(hitting) + P(missing attack1 and hitting attack2) = .5 + .25 = .75 So overall you're 25% more likely to hit without using marksmen. Chance to hit for an elven archer using marksman for one attack: P(hitting) = P(rolling 7,8,9,10) = .4 for a single attack both attacks hit: P(hitting and hitting) = .16 Miss both attacks: .36 Chance to land one and not the other: .48 On average you are going to hit: 2*.16 + 1*.48 = .8, this means on average you won't quite land 1 hit per round. With sure shot this changes (if you want the formula for this PM me) to hitting an average of: 1.136 times per round. This basically amounts to a 33% increase in the amount of damage you do. So if on average you hit, from those 12 + 3 + 1 + 1 shots, say you land your attacks with 50% success, then you'll be increasing the amount of damage you do from 8.5 to 11.5 (about). So you're doing on average 3 more points of damage per round. Over the course of a 6 round game this amounts to probably close to 12-14 points of damage (due to models getting hit, etc, etc). Overall elves gain about 20-22 extra damage tracks from their faction abilities. The reptus gain significantly more from their faction ability, but it will be significantly more work to prove that. If someone would like me to I can, but it's going to be long. Comparing this with armor of the faithful and it doesn't even hold a candle, to be honest. With deflect/1 you're talking about gaining less than one damage track per round, and this isn't factoring in the considerable number of natural 10s most armies will need against crusaders. Justicars / Duke Gerard / Angel / Danel / Damon / Lion's Lancers all need natural 10s to be hit by most factions anyways. In the course of a game I would predict Fearless + Deflect/1 is going to give you 8 extra damage tracks or less. This is not a considerable change. So if we're talking about if it's balanced - I'm going to say no, absolutely definitely not when faced with the reptus and elves. To every other faction, Darkspawn and vampires included, I'm going to say it's fairly close, a little on the downside. I don't factor in Smite(Evil) because only 1/3 of the armies are evil and they even have some neutral models often. So it's hard to say how often it will or will not come into play. The biggest thing, and the biggest advantage, of the elves and reptus is that they ALWAYS get their FA to work and there's no way you could possibly stop them.

Going to give it some play testing, but I can already tell I'm going to fell the Sublist of Aurellius is going to need a little bit more umph. :EDIT: And that Jade strike is going to be very, very scary to play against with a melee army.

#MA 1 @ MAV 12 = 1 point of damage. I would ignore the fellow. Rich You do mean 2 points of damage when you're using a MAV of 12 right? He does have critical strike after all.

Just one more question: Why is there a premium for cleric attack spells, as they're already worse than mage attack spells, and powerful clerics generally have lower CP?

This is just me, I can't really speak for others, but when I take a cheap cleric or a multitasking cleric, I don't expect them to succeed on spells, so I give them low cost spells. However, when I sink the points, somewhere around 80+, on someone who is pretty much just a cleric, I'd like to see their VERY limited amount of spells succeed. Another question I would like to see answered: why do cleric universally have a small spell pool than mages? Most grade 2 mages, for instance, are 2/6 or 2/8, most grade 2 clerics are 2/4 or 2/6.

I voted for the upgrading of cleric CPs in general, but with a catch. I don't want those little chumpy, cheap clerics getting a boost to CP. Ones that immediately come to mind are Sir Brannor, Sir Conlan, Gonda, the non-unique overlord cleric, the various cheap nefsokar clerics. I would only want to see the big costly models upgraded, namely the unique ones in most cases. This would help limit the applicability of the boost, and keep healing from being dominate and absolutely necessary for an effective build. What to know what I really want to see? Probably not, but I'm going to let you know anyways! I would like to see those big bad clerics get a boost to DV and MD, along with some new defensive spells. First of all, most clerics I've seen are modelled sporting heavy armor. The highest cleric DV I've seen yet, cleric elite that is, is 11, in the nefsokar list and crusader list. I would like to see clerics having a little bit more staying power. Mages are the glass cannons that get out there and wreak havoc and need to be careful. Clerics are the old men who putter around at the back of the army trying to strap on as much armor as they possibly can. Also, why such narrow amounts of CP on clerics? 5-8 is a tiny range(gonda not included) compared to the 4-10 you're seeing with mages. I wouldn't really consider cleric spells better than mage spells, but that's my opinion I guess. EDIT: Also I stand corrected. Ivar is DV 12 (but an incredibly weak cleric, only CP 5), and Ombur is also 11.

I've talked about a similar idea before. We were thinking the /# could be how many wounds the model actually healed though. I'd like to see some Flying Cavarly. Something that Moves quickly on the ground and in the air. Give it all the perks of the heavy cavalry SAs, Shock, Improved Charge, First Strike. Similar to the Onyx Chevs with the Nightmare upgrade... but I want to see a model for these also. Darkspawn could easily come up with something, Pegasus Knights for Crusaders, Nightmares for Overlords, or Reptus on dragons.. Yeah, just stick with Reptus on large sized dragons, that will be awesome. Can they have innate(FireBall) also. I really don't care if they are 200 points, they will be awesome. I'm all about Pegasus knights. I can guarantee I would have a full troop of those. Also a mage on a unicorn or pegusus is cool. Better yet, an elven mage on a dragon. THat would be fun.

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Here's a sample army I'll be fielding until I get my all calvary army together: Duke Gerard - Holy Light, Holy Weapon, Greater Magic Armor Justicar x4 Templar Ironspine x4 Valandil - Ice Blastx2, Fireball, Firestorm - Greater Familiar Lord Ironraven (gotta see how he fairs) Templar Knight x3 Templar Ironspine x4 Saramonde (I chose to run with her as my gimmick character instead of Gideon) Sir Brannor - Cure 1 x2, Holy Light Templar Knight x3 Templar Ironspine x3 Halbarad - Divine Vigor, Cure 2, Cure 1 - Greater Magic Armor I only took cure ones for the event people get out of range of my heals, otherwise I have healers to go around. No calvary in this army. 1500 point army by the way.

Am I looking at the wrong card? Yeah the one I have is much different than the one on reapergames. You are right good sir, he is a force to be reckoned with and tough as an anvil.

Yeah, I think he's definitely still useful in some situations, but he isn't able to be used in the manner I used him before. I must admit, I had something of a man crush on Marcus Gideon. He was my favorite model in the crusader army by a long shot. I always strapped GMA on him every game. So when he finally was out of spells he could get in there and crack some skulls. In fact, I usually had him in there cracking skulls before he was out of spells if I could. I'm a very offensive and melee oriented player, sometimes that comes back to bite me, but I can usually manage to do alright. I couldn't agree more about the gorgeous model, and I have one painted up myself. I think what I'm still coming to terms with is that before the changes the crusaders were one of, if not the most, expensive armies. Now they're fairly average in the price and power part (Not counting calvary, good lord not counting calvary). Sorry about the confusion. I was looking at a slightly outdated pdf version of Broderick, when he was only 44 points and a sad excuse for a captain. He is now much more to my liking.

We are talking about the dwarven king right? Looking at the model he's at DV 10 when you hit his fourth DT?

Not useless so much as they fill a much different role. Before I would strap some GMA on Gideon and send him out there as my tank hero, and he did an absolutely remarkable job of it. I've had instances of him straight up taking on a full troop with a little bit of support. Now I don't think I'd have him stand toe to toe with any melee adept in the entire game. Halbarad is the one more on the fences about. I like the boost in DV, as he's pretty much the cream of the crop when it comes to cleric DV (dwarves not included because they are absolutely hardcore now), but he really became an iffy caster. Before he was a pretty great cleric, only a 10% miss chance with no items. Now you're talking a 30% miss chance, which is a large difference. Lord Ironraven, where to begin. I didn't use him originally, until he got his spear in the faction book. After that he was pretty much always out on the board, right behind a templar knight. He was an incredibly powerful captain before, costing at somewhere around 106 he was one of the stronger captains in the game. Now he's just about the cheapest (and weakest) you can find anywhere. Also before Ironraven had some flavor, he was different. I don't think another model in the game actually had big, and that made him unique. I particularly enjoyed this pecularity. Mostly what I'm complaining about is the huge change of roles for models I thought were completely balanced and I loved playing with on the board. I have 4 painted halbarads as I would often put out multiple of him. It just upsets me that I have these really cool models that I don't actually see myself playing with anymore. Also I'm forced to comment on Broderick not making a lick of sense to me. He leads the justicars, he's one of their leaders. How is he flat out worse than the guys he is supposed to lead? I've heard the phrase "The crap floats to the top", but I couldn't really see that as being true in an army.

Here's how I feel so far. I haven't bought my all calvary army, but it's only a matter of time. The good: Lion lancers, Lion lancers, Lion lancers. These guys look bad enough to break anyone with, and now they measure up to their leader Danel (who is also one scary mofo). Sir Damon is now much more fieldable as he's not going to break anytime he gets attacked by a couple piddly little breaker type models. Love the calvary. Lots more healing to go around. Crusaders were healing heavy before, but now they really show it. Templar Ironspines, need I say more? The Angel. Justicars: these guys are the back bone of the crusaders now. Needless to say, I'm glad I have 12 of these bad dudes painted. The bad: Lady Jehenne. Why have 3 attacks and a MAV of 6 if a grunt is going to run you over in melee? Heaven forbid she fight 2 at once. Change of role for the army. Previously I thought of the crusaders as THE defensive army. High DV and high MD across the board. You could really hunker down and take a pounding with tons of healing to back it up. Now you're talking pretty average units across the board (calvary not included). Justicars are the big heavy hitters now, and that's not saying too much. Even the darkspawn have heavier hitters then Crusaders now (OUCH!). Again, not talking about the calvary, those guys are absolutely solid. I think the overlords are also feeling the pain in this regard. The Ugly: Lord Ironraven, Halbarad, Marcus Gideon, especially Marcus Gideon. You'd think these dudes would strap one some extra armor or something being around knights all the time. Halbarad got a nice boost, but I'd still never field him. In previous version I NEVER fielded an army without 2 of these bad dudes. yada, yada, yada big dudes were underpowered, but these guys gave a bang for their buck. Now I don't think I could ever see myself fielding Marcus Gideon again: which is sad, since he is my favorite model in the entire army.

I have fielded the vampires (but not since the last iteration of changes) and they won the day. It wasn't, however, the hands down butt whooping I'm used to handing people when I played the vamps. Sir Osric ( much to my ultimate dismay :( ) dropped in his first round of combat with a single river troll. He had no time to even think about feeding.

Yes, and you'll pay quite a bit for it. A vampire player in a 1500ish point game will have somewhere around 20 or 30 models that are potential healing. Let's go with 10 just to prove the point with a lesser number. So we have 10 "tracks" of healing that the vampire player gets. He doesn't need to roll to get them, just be where the bodies are (which happens because combat happens), so there's a 100% chance he can get them. Dispute that if you want, it's technically not accurate, but remember that we're using a significantly lower number of heals for this example. At the rate of what healing spells cost, that's 100 points in spells that you took, compared to 0 points the vampire player paid for his healing. Now factor in chance to hit for the clerics. Neb-Nesew Nepet has a 100% chance to hit, so if you want to take *the* best cleric in the game, you aren't losing any more than 100 points. Dwarven high cleric, you miss 1/10th of your spells, if your rolling matches mathematical probability, so you paid 100 points for 90 points worth of healing. Pay 110, 120 to be safe if you still want 10 heals. But now, most factions don't have access to a powerful cleric like that. And even the factions that do - are we saying that the only way to break even versus Vampires is to use only the creme of the crop? Shouldn't I be able to have a viable list using any models? So use your "typical" cleric with CP 5. 50% chance to hit with spells, meaning you're spending at least 200 points in spells just to heal 10 tracks. Now we're really talking about a significant points deficit when trying to keep up with vampirism. Remember, my point isn't that vampirism is horrible and should go away, only that it's a little bit too much and that an adjustment needs to be made to bring its relative advantages in line with what other factions can also boast. No other FA's grant such a useful thing in such a large quantity, and I'd prefer to see it brought in line a little better. First, CP 5 is a 60% chance to hit with spells. A 5-10 all succeed. And no other faction grants such a useful thing in large quantity? Don't forget about mercy, pain cage, elves faction ability (giving all elven archers sure shot), enrage/warcry; among others. Especially now, when it's actually a more fair game to field more expensive heavy hitting models, thus leading to smaller armies, which leaves healing out. Do I think vampires have an advantage over huge swarm armies like goblins? Absolutely. Do I think vampires (and their feeding ability) are going to dominate a force of 15 reptus packing a full troop of river trolls and Uru? Absolutely not. At best they'll hold their own, more likely they'll get their backsides handed to them. Actually, since the changes I see the vampirism ability as one of hte weaker faction abilities; what is one damage track anyways?

Heal twenty points in a game? Give the dwarven high cleric 3 cure 3s. There's nine without even trying. Or 2 cure 3s and a cure 4. I'm limiting him to just 3 spells so he has some time to melee also, just in case there's a complaint about the cleric warlord not meleeing. 2 3s and a 4 gives you 10 points. Ivar with 2 Cure 2s and 2 Cure 3s just caught up to all the healing a vampire army is going to do in a game, except it's going to require significantly less activiations. You could also take 20 Cure 1s, and that would be the same amount of points as before, but take significantly more time. Also, just want to point out, that pretty much any army can do that with similar ease. Other than perhaps the Overlords.

I think one thing everyone is forgetting is that every other faction in the game has another way to heal. The ONLY way for vampires to heal is to drain damage tracks. And then you can only heal one damage track at a time. I don't think this is nearly so powerful as people are making it out to be. If anything I'd say this is now one of the least powerful SAs, especially when sized up against something like sure shot or the darkspawn. By the way, if Judas is flying into two corpses, how is he draining those two corpses in that one round? Don't get wrong, Judas is definitely a beast, but Vampires, even with feeding, can still have their rears handed to them. In a standoff battle I saw my crimson knights get flat out dominated by some trolls. Maybe vampires now just need a change of tactics?

Here is the changes I would make to the crusader special ability: Make the conversion by the leader automatic with no check. You're already paying the penalty for using it as an invoke action and you're choosing to leave a model up. However there should be a clarification to this rule which does not allow a model that is fearless or undead to be converted, cause let's be honest here, a fearless model should not be afraid to die. I think this should help keep the SA in line in terms of power. As the ability stands now, I dont' believe I would ever even waste my time using it, I'd just go with the sure death of the model.

It sounds to me like you're confusing the models benefitting from scrye shot and the models benefitting from Blazer. I think mostly what is being argued is if a model using scrye shot (an action that causes you to lose your movement, just like marksman - which you can use marksman as part of a volley) to determine LOS can also lead a volley. So really the other archers are indirectly benefitting from Scrye Shot, but they're just feeding off of the Blazer special ability. As someone else stated earlier, they had to put that helm in the game for the Crusaders for a reason.

Do you mean don't use that strategy, or don't use the sublist? Don't use the sublist, as a whole it's fairly underwhelming, with the major faction ability of knights going from adepts -> grunts. The other abilities are meh.

That strategy is solid for a normal Crusader army, but since you're shooting for sublist of aurelius I'm just going to tell you right away: don't do it. Ok now that said advice is out of the way here is how I build my sublist army. I generally run with Sir Danel, because for 102 points he's pretty tough. The Guardian Beast is a sweet buy and already comes with the Judgement special ability. Generally you're going to want to mix your number of knights and justicars. Knights seem to have the better survivability, but the justicars can pack a punch if you have enough healing. I always run with Gerard in the sublist, he's a decent enough cleric and if you're dying to you can take a halbarad with him to keep the healing up all around.