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Saint Vierzehn

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  1. What do y'all think about this list? I think if I used a couple of inexpensive mages and shooters to draw my opponent in, while keeping my heavy melee units tunneled until I could make a favorable charge, it would do pretty well. It's 1500 points.



    Troop 1:

    Kordtok (captain)

    Pulgers x 2

    Priest: Counterspell, ice shards, fireball


    Troop 2:

    Naldak (sergeant)

    Tunnel knigt x 8 (mob)

    Pulger x 3 (mob)

    Priest: Counterspell, ice shards, fireball


    Troop 3:

    Naldak (sergeant)

    Pinner x 2

    Priest: Counterspell, ice shards, fireball


    Troop 4:

    Naldak (sergeant)

    Pinner x 2

    Priest: Counterspell, ice shards, fireball


    Troop 5:

    Naldak (sergeant)

    Pinner x 2

    Priest: Counterspell, ice shards, fireball


    Troop 6:

    Charnel grub


    Troop 7:

    Charnel grub


    Troop 8:

    Charnel grub




  2. Bloodstone Gnomes, Lupines, and Razig are what I would consider mini-factions. Somewhere in the neighbourhood of 12-18 datacards.



    No more right now, please. We've got plenty to deal with right now on that front. The ones we've got now need to be playbalanced and expanded (except possibly Razig, which seems to be reasonably well playbalanced and looks fully developed to me).


    Side note: The Koborlas look pretty poorly balanced to me. I think they're underpowered. An underpowered faction won't wreck the game, though, so I've not torn them apart the way I'm laying into the BSG's. Sad, really, because it was the lupines that first drew me to this game, and to the Merc faction.



  3. Not having played a real game yet, I've wondered if cavalry charges are as dangerous as they historically seem to be. Reading through the rules and data cards seems to indicate that they are not in this game.



    Yes and no. Most of the cavalry in the Warlord isn't heavy cav. The "devastating charges" that you're thinking about didn't really begin to take place until knights were put into the field, and there aren't many of those in the game.


    That said, the few truly heavy cav units in the game - the Crusader's Lion Lancers - are devastating on the charge. With first strike, shock, high MAV, high DV, good mobility, and lots of attacks, they dish out damage on a charge very nicely. 'Course, at 100 points a pop, you're going to be able to field a lot of footmen against them, which is pretty historically accurate, too...


    Most of the cav in Warlord is the historical equivalent light cav - stuff more similar to what the Greeks and Romans used, and best suited to the types of activities that the Greeks and Romans used their cav for... scouting, picking off isolated units, and finishing off stuff that the heavy infantry has pretty well broken.



    Do the rules support some or any of the historical tactics?



    If you're considering historical tactics used in fights other than large scale battles, Warlord does a pretty reasonable job. This is not a game of large armies. You won't often see a true phalanx or pike square. But remember that you're typically playing a game with only 30 soldiers. A phalanx or pike square doesn't make much sense when it's only a few dozen guys going at it. A sheild wall supported by spearmen with some missile troops behind and a good leader does work very nicely, though.



    Do pikemen (or anything with Reach) have any effect on charging attackers?



    The rule you're looking for is "First Strike". Most models armed with polearms get it. And yes, it does have quite a nice effect on charging attackers.




  4. Fluff material?



    It would be nice, but I can get on just fine without it. Fluff does add to the game, and requires no playtesting.






    Not sure what you mean by that. If you're talking about adding new factions to the game, I would advise extreme caution. With the BSG's a work in progress, we don't need to be considering more of that sort of thing right now.



    Compilation of Scenarios?



    I've seen some really bad proposals for scenarios, so I would advise lots of caution and playtesting for anything before it becomes official.


    That said, the scenarios that I've seen used several times at Reaper HQ's monthly tournies are pretty reasonable.



    Campaign Manager/Guide?



    I would like to see a campaign start. Also, the one-time special stuff that can occur in a campaign is a good opportunity to playtest stuff with no ill effect on the officially sanctioned game.



    Spellbook of new spells?



    Don't need it.



    Magic Item Book?



    Really, really don't need it. Seriously, there's no quicker way to screw up playbalance than to add a low point whizmo that can be taken by any model in the game.



    Re-visiting the idea of faction books where fluff is incorporated with current datacards faction specific rules, items and spells?



    I think I still have some of the old ones gathering dust.



    Would you two or three of the above project each year? Or would you want 2-3 documents that contained a bit of each of the above ideas?



    I would like to see it done the way that Blizzard releases software. Let it out when it's ready, when you've thoroughly tested it, and when you know it's a good product, which is not necessarily when it's "on schedule".




  5. Trying to build a Chorus :lol: But it looks like I'm singing a SOlo!



    Nope. This time you've made a sound argument and presented it well.


    Magic defense is no longer optional for a player that expects to be competitive, and the game offers very few ways to obtain it. One method is to have a lot of healing and toughnes, but even that can be overwhelmed. Another is to have lots of damage tracks (4+) and low point cost - something almost unheard of in this game, and rightly so. The final option is counterspells.


    And that's why it is important for counterspells to be available and effective for every army. Not every army can or should rely on toughness/healing as the Crusaders are able. Not every army can or should consist primarily of dwarf warriors and other targets that are so meaty and price efficient as to have a certain form of innate magic resistance, simply by being able to soak up the damage. For armies that can't do either of those things, counterspells are a must. And even for armies that can do those things, counterspells are a good choice for a multi-layer defense.


    Heck, if there's anybody that should be screaming for more effective counter-magic, it's the Darkspawn. With little toughness, no healing, none of the elven defensive magics, and high point cost models, they're very susceptible to being blasted.


    Generally speaking, it's the arnies that are best suited to dishing out magical damage that are most in need of defense from it.


    With the way things are now, the most efficient build for most wizards will be 2-3 ice blasts and a counterspell or two. Big AOE's will rarely pay sufficiently anymore, but persistently repeated one-target spells might. And the prevelence of high-damage, one-target spells will only serve to improve the utility of inexpensive models relative to big point sinks. Lots of ice blasts and ice storms will spell the end of effectiveness for 50+ point adepts, non-magic heroes, and solos. 15 points to knock a 60 point model down to its last damage track? Sure, I'll take some of that... especially since the best you can do is delay it, not stop it, and even trying to delay it will sink even more of your points.


    Maybe once the fanboys figure out that better counterspells are the only reliable & effective way to defend the expensive stuff of which they are so fond we'll see a real cry for change. Until then, the best solution is even more of the low-point "scroll caddies" that they so detest.



  6. yes, but taking a cheap mage with counterspells shouldn't be able to cancel out an expensive mage with offensive spells.



    They can't. Cheap mage = low CP. Low CP = pretty good chance to fail casting, which means you've burned 10 points of counterspell + cost of mage for jack diddly squat. And even if you succeed at the counterspell, if you're facing off an expensive mage with high CP, the powerful wiz still has a pretty good chance to succeed at blasting something.


    Not to mention that a cheap mage with a couple of counterspells won't be good for much else. If I'm dropping 60+ points of wiz on the table for the sole purpose of magic defense, I expect him to be able to actually generate some effective magic defense once in a while.



  7. On the whole, I think all the changes that are being made to mages are a good thing. Because of those changes, magic defense is going to be much more important.


    Right now, the only effective defense against magic is healing (either SA: Healer or Cleric), and even that is somewhat limited depending on whether the targets have toughness.


    With the mods to familiars, counterspells are of very limited effectiveness. If a wizard casting an ice spell has a familiar, the best that a counterspell will do is delay successful casting by a turn. I would prefer to have a successful counterspell negate the spell recovery of a familiar.



  8. Is this for real? Is my collection of cool Reaper models going to go to waste? Will my first Warlord army of choice get thrown out like so much trash? What could prompt Reaper to cancel one of the brightest parts of the Warlord game?! I got a lot of people excited about building Freelance armies of whatever they wanted. Samurai armies, Northern barbarians armies, giant insect armies, all-elemental armies. I have plans that will just get thrown away. My To-tanem and Clan War armies...useless.

    Tell me this is a mistake. Please.


    Play Mercs, proxy, and get over it.



  9. 6) The Angel isn't a terrible idea, and remember that all ranges from ground casters and ranged attackers are Halved while in the air, and you are harder to hit. You'd have to worry about Rauthorous, but the Angel is one of only a couple models in the game that can take Rauthorous on as an equal.



    I don't recall seeing the "half spellcasting range vs fliers" ever used in play, and the +DV for fliers vs ranged attacks is something I haven't seen since last edition. Is this new stuff that's being added? I would like to see a rules cite, if there is one.



  10. The main thing that has kept me from really joining this conversation so far has been the one statement you made early on where you basically insulted myself and Gus (talking about us having our heads buried somewhere) and I admit I took offense to that and it has been hard to read the rest of your comments in an unbiased, unaffected point of view.



    That comment was directed only at Gus, and I believe he and I have settled up in private.



    As the main person who worked on the BSG, and as someone who knows you personally and sees you up at the Asylum on a regular basis, I can tell you that I do respect your opinion. And will take more time looking at what we have created here so far.



    I knew they were somebody's brainchild, and I knew I was telling somebody that I didn't like what they created.


    For what it's worth, I've no objection to the concept. I just think it's badly executed, and that can be fixed.


    Reaper's point system doesn't work properly on the low end of the damage track scale or the high end of the damage track scale. And just about everything on the BSG list is in one of those two categories. There isn't much of a cost multiplier for lots of SA's on a two damage track model, and that's what's throwing the whole thing wonky.



    But, I can also tell you that has not been unbalanced at all so far in playtesting. Sure, it has dominated a game or two, and it has been wiped out in a game or two.


    So, far it has not proven to be any more potent than your 1000 point crusader force with 13 healers and a handful of heavy cavalry in it.



    My thousand point list doesn't have 13 healers. It's more like 6 or 7. And when the cavalry it's swinging is Lion's Lancers, 3 of them is more than a handful.


    BTW, somebody borrowed my 1000 point Crusader list recently, and didn't do so well with it. It's not just the build of the list, it's also the execution of the play.



    Quite the opposite really, the crusaders mercy has gotten the better of the gnomes almost every playtest against the tin cans.



    The Crusaders and the Dwarves do have FA's that pretty well turn off the BSG FA. That's another reason why I don't like the BSG's. Against many (most, even) factions, the BSG FA is golden. Against Crusaders and Dwarves, it's fairly useless. Too much rock-paper-scissors factor there.


    That, and BSG's are very assault-oriented, whereas Crusaders and Dwarves are the two factions best suited to sucking up a big assault.


    Try giving the Scraggers the same stats and SA's as an Overlord warrior. 3 damage tracks, no toughness, decent DV, ~30 points each. I'll bet that would balance out the BSG list quite a bit.



  11. I've seen at least a couple proposals for the BSG FA.


    I think it is a bad idea to reward a player when an opponent kills one of your models. I think it would be a better idea to allow BSG's to sacrifice their own troops for the benefits.



  12. RE:Grub


    But you assume those 200 points are only going to be used throughout the game to deal with the Grub, which I doubt will be the case.



    No, I don't. What I assume is that when you commit more points than I have, that I'll be able to either match up to your level with any resources on my army list that best suits the threat (and, as you've previously pointed out, the BSG's have options for everything), or commit that many more points of resource elsewhere to take best advantage that I can, whichever I prefer.


    Committing 200 points of resource to kill a 124 point model is a losing proposition. If I choose to allow you to pull it off (and whether you actually can is very debatable), it's only because I've chosen to take that much more out of your hide somewhere else.


    You're obviously not being objective. I don't intend to carry this conversation with you any further.



  13. Though I am having a brain cramp about whether you can COH warlord at the moment and the books are in the room with the sleeping baby


    It's legal in the current edition, though I can't speak for RC 2008.


    I wouldn't recommend using COH on Vasyl, though. He's eating about a quarter of your points on a 1000 point list, and just isn't worth his point cost overall.


    FH, your list needs a higher headcount. Cheap infantry is one of the strong points of the Merc list. Try subbing in some 18 point warriors and 19 point spearmen.



  14. The Grub doesn't bother me too much, I might need to allocate more than its points cost to defeat it, but I certainly wouldn't lose as many points as it costs in doing so.



    When you say that, what you're failing to consider is that you've now freed up an equivalent number of points of anything I choose on my list to support it.



    Many models in the game are there to distract the opponent, and indeed can hurt you hard if you are unprepared, but the Grub is hardly the only one in the game.



    I take nothing to act merely as a distraction. Oh, it's a bonus if it does. But if I drop it on the table, it's there to win the game.



    Playing against it the first time I'd likely try a combination of Ranged attacks + Spells + First strikers.



    So, how many points are you dedicating to this effort? It's starting to sound like quite a bit more than 124.



    I mean MD 14 is steep (not sure why a Carrion Crawler is so Magic resistant) but CP 9-10 spells aren't that uncommon, and an Ice Shard is pretty cheap,



    I think the cheapest CP 9 wizard you'll get is a Bloodstone Priest with a greater familiar. That plus an ice shard spell will run you 80 points. And you're going to have to dedicate a whole lot more than that to put the grub down.



    And Yes, I would charge the Grub with 3-4 grunts (First strikers I would prefer) but if I was smart I would only attack with 2-3 leaving the last one free to CdG.


    4 grunts is the best choice, since attacking with only two grunts (even after the ice shard) leaves a reasonable chance that you'll do insufficient damage to put it down tough. At ~30 points each, plus the wizard described above, you've now dedicated ~200 points to killing my 124 point model. That isn't a winning solution, and we haven't even begun to discuss the fact that I can drop 6 MAV 6 attacks to kill the one guy you've held back to coup, or the fact that I'll probably be keeping my high-mobility grub BEHIND MY FRONT LINE, ACTING AS A MOBILE ASSAULT RESERVE rather than hanging him out all by his lonesome for you to pick off with the models of your choosing.



  15. My front liners often also have Warmaster.


    Oh, well, the grub has disable, too. If your front-liners have 3+ melee attacks, I'll simply use the grub's move 7 to hit you somewhere else, avoiding your expensive front line entirely.


    So then the Grub is dead on counterattacks, or if neccesary, with another round of combat.


    By the time you go to "another round of combat", this beastie has (at a minimum!) had two rounds of defensive strikes and one round of its own offense. That's 18 MAV 7 attacks with poison and disable, and it only needs to put down 2-4 models to break even on its points.


    With the tougher DV, just bring in some Reach,


    Lessee... three front liners plus a couple of models with reach support will run you about 150 points, especially if you want your font line to be beefy enough stand up to this thing for a round.


    I'm already coming out ahead on this exchange just by tying up more of your army's resources than I'm having to commit.



    or tag it with a spell or ranged attacks to soften it up.


    That's more of your resources committed to this thing. It's earning it's keep just by being a target.


    You have a partial point, here. What you're descirbing is the best way to deal with the grub. But it's still not a cost-efficient solution. There is no cost-effective response to the thing. And that's its problem.


    And the Grub has 4 tracks, as many as some of my soldiers. And isn't likely to be bringing friends.


    Maybe in your universe. In mine, I plan to keep a bunch of 22-point scrubs around him for support.




    It also only gets back up if you choose to ignore an opportunity to CdG it. If you do that on a Tough/5 model, that's your own mistake.


    So, you're not going to charge it, right? After all, when you charge and attack, you don't have actions left to coup. So you're conceding the charge. That means I get to pick the point where we first engage, and I'll be targeting one of your models that I can expect to put down in one round. If you're lucky, you'll score 1 point of damage with your defensive strike (Disable, remember? And I don't need to coup, because I can just let the poison run), but I'll be ~40 points to the good.


    Now it's your turn again. Want to charge?


    Oh, and don't forget, the grub is fearsome, too, which is another disincentive for your charge.



    And if it does get back up on that last track.


    ... with toughness 5 and 6 MAV 5 disable attacks with poison and move 6, yes.


    Innate(Bolt) him dead. Any caster that misses on that deserves to get eaten.


    No, you knock him down tough again. Whoopee. BTW, how many points did you spend on that wizard of yours?


    Look, the grub can be killed. But in order to do it, you're going to have to commit a whole lot more than 124 points to pull it off, and we haven't even started talking about what happens if I keep a 36 point Matron within 4" of him.



  16. But, Argyrian (Silver Dragon) STILL does not have a breath attack?


    You're probably never going to see a flying shooter on any list. It was tried once, and it's not a good game mechanic.


    A flying shooter with an AOE would be even worse.



  17. Saint Vierzehn: If you are convinced these guys are ultra-powerful then playtest them.



    I'll let you know if I feel like it. That's a really crappy attitude for a game company to take towards its patrons... "Don't like it? Spend your time playtesting it for us." Last time Reaper pulled that one on me I walked away for several months. There's a fine line between soliciting input and demanding free game development. My employer gives me a paycheck for my analytical abilities. I don't expect a paycheck from my hobbies, but I do expect them to be recreational, not work.


    I've been playing a Merc list loaded with 2-damage track models with similar point costs. My merc list has a handful of elite troops and many scrubs. I'm pretty sure the BSG list I would build would look a lot like it, only dialed up an order of magintude on the power scale because EVERYTHING would now have toughness and healing.


    I'm half tempted to build a BSG army using my Merc models as proxies, and then play it without the BSG army SA's just to make a point. I'm pretty sure I would clean up with it, big time. On the other hand, I'm half tempted to refuse to get near the list (either as a player or an opponent) because I consider it unsporting. I don't think there would be any glory in winning with it.


    Speaking of employers and paychecks, I've spent too much time already this morning. Gotta go.



  18. Bloodstone gnomes. There are so many problems with this list that I hardly know where to begin.


    There is only one captain and only one sergeant, and both of them are unique. I assume that will be fixed when the army list comes out, making them non-unique.


    Kurand the Ever Living, an 89 point warlord. For an 89 point warlord, I would expect someone pretty scrubby. This guy is both a mage and a cleric, with CP 8 in both. But wait, there's more! He's also got 4 attacks, and warmaster, and a DV that other 89-point spellcasters would envy. His MAV might look kinda low, but that's deceiving once you consider that it's easy to back him up with lots of numbers and reach. Orba Sinhan beware, for 89 points, this guy will kick your butt! Oh, and he's got toughness out the wazoo, and will most likely be backed up by 3 healers. Hmm... and we haven't even touched what the army SA will do for him.


    Speaking of healer backup, Bloodstone Matrons are the new gold standard. Hospitalers wish they had it so good. Take a hospitaler, add tough/1 (!!!) and reach support (!!!!!). But wait, there's more! They're also clerics. And they have good MAV, too. After all, it wouldn't do to have your opponent knock your healers down in close combat and emerge unscathed. Add in the army SA, and these ol' biddies are healers that just won't die easily... and for 36 points, they're a bargain unlike anything else in the game.


    Lesser Bloodstone Golem. Take a lupine rager, tweek its DV and MAV up, add fearsome, and reduce its cost. Let's not even consider the fact that the army SA can give them a free upgrade to something that 200+ point models would hesitate to engage.


    Bloodstone Priest. A 35 point level 3 CP 7 wizard. Well, compared to all the other hero choices in the BSG list, he's pretty pathetic. But compared to stuff on all the other army lists, he's darned good.


    Beetle Rider Lancers. Cavalry mobility and backstab. You're an idiot if you can't figure out what to do with that. Not good enough for you? Well, they threw in raider/2 also, so when you're about to take some hits you can disengage and go pull your little stunt on another part of the line. They also have DV comparable to most heavy cav, but at 46 points a pop, they're priced like light cav.


    Bloodstone Guard. Good MAV, and they have reach support. At 32 points each, they're pretty comparable to most mid-range spearmen. Except for the fact that they're DV 14, of course.


    Bloodstone Hoks. 4 attacks and warmaster for 36 points. There are 50-point models in the game that wish they had it so good.


    Bloodstone Pinners. 24" crit shot, low point cost (of course) and toughness (of course). And typically with plenty of healer backup, given what the rest of the list looks like. A skilled player can use these to dictate where the battle will be fought. Not only can the BSG's whip anybody's butt in melee, they own ranged combat, too.


    Pulgers. Another spearman option, just in case you think 30 points is too much to pay for reach support.


    Tunnel knights. 3 attacks and warmaster for 34 points... just in case the Hoks weren't enough for you.


    Bloodstone scraggers. Scrubs, right? Well, they are priced like scrubs. And have toughness, of course. Everything on this list has toughness. These guys are perfect for driving the army SA. Since they come in hordes, and will generally have reach support and healer backup, they'll probably do some decent damage before giving bonusses to the rest of your army after they die.


    Charnel Grub. 6 (!!!!!!!) attacks, high MAV, and warmaster (of course). And good DV. And lots of toughness. AND POISON STRIKE? For 124 points, this thing can wipe out the front line of most armies, and then get back up and do it again.


    Purple worm. Well, it looks pretty much like the 200+ point solos that you'll see on other lists. Which is to say, it's got special movement, high DV, lots of wound tracks, fearsome, high MAV, lots of attacks, and warmaster. But quite frankly, given the bargains and synergies that you can get elsewhere on the list, it's silly to take him. Grab 10 scraggers instead, and use them to fuel the charnel grub after they've done their duty as soldiers. Hello 6 MAV 17 attacks with poison!


    Greater Bloodstone Golem. Don't pay points for him. Get him as a free upgrade of the lesser golem.


    I hear the counter-argument already. "But StV, these guys all have low damage tracks!" So? The army SA actually rewards you for getting your own guys killed, and for the roles that the various models are best suited to fill, they're hyper-efficient. 2 damage tracks isn't a disadvantage for a model standing behind the front line. 2 damage tracks isn't a disadvantage for a 22 point model with toughness. 2 damage tracks isn't a disadvantage for a 30-point model with DV 13+ and good melee and warmaster. 2 damage tracks isn't a disadvantage for a list OF LOW POINT COST MODELS, ALL OF WHICH HAVE TOUGHNESS, AND IN WHICH HEALING ABOUNDS.





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