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Posts posted by odinsgrandson

  1. 5 hours ago, Gadgetman! said:

    My opinion on exclusives...   

    In games the exclusives should only be minor advantage, or possibly a fancier, more detailed item, not a 'game winner' or big advantage.  Giving out 'game winners' or similar is just going to annoy players that come late to a new game...


    You have some good points from a customer standpoint.  Exclusives that unbalance players aren't cool (I have a different attitude about them in board games than in tabletop wargames).  But even with board games or video games, I honestly don't like exclusives because it means I can't recommend them to my friends.


    But Cthulhu Death May Die actually got me considering the economics of exclusives.  I'm starting to see some sense to them.

    Right from the start of DMD, CMON were selling a 2 foot tall Cthulhu (R'lyeh Rising) as an exclusive option- and from  the look of it, they didn't expect to sell anywhere close to the numbers that they actually sold.

    And I'm pretty sure that Cthulhu couldn't exist in a retail model.  Because 2 foot tall minis just don't sell all that well.  (Viszeralyn was limited to 200 castings- absurdly low, but still available for years).


    Combine that record, the price tag and shelf space, and I think you've got a recipe for a major retail flop.  But on Kickstarter, they sold over four THOUSAND of them (and it is clear that they were expecting a few hundred).  There's no way that would have happened in a retail model- and it would have been even worse after a Kickstarter.




    But what about other gaming exclusives?  Well, I think a lot of those might not work well at retail as well.

    Retailers are trying to min-max their stock, and expansions never sell as well as the core game.  When a kickstarter gets crazy huge, they usually go crazy with adding extra expansions.  It makes sense to limit the retail version to a few items that will fit nicely on the shelf.  Especially with a new game, without a proven sales record- because no retailer is going to dedicate a wall to a brand new game (although big online stores are another matter).


    I'm not sure that most retailers want all of those expansions- except when they're actually exclusive because they can mark the price up.  But the question remains as to whether the existence of unavailable exclusives hurts game store sales.

    • Like 4
  2. I'm honestly not sure what my feelings on non-exclusives not going to retail are.  I mean, on one hand, I feel a little bit of "You promised I could get it later!" 


    But on the other hand, I can't really see it as dishonest.  I mean, they clearly intended to go to retail, but failed.  While I think that KS creators have every obligation to fulfill on everything they sell to backers, I don't think they are obligated to go to retail if it isn't financially feasible for them.



    On 9/7/2018 at 8:47 PM, Darsc Zacal said:

    Just want to point out that Reaper did have an exclusive Sophie for their very first Bones kickstarter but haven’t offered any exclusives since then.


    Tell the whole story- a lot of us thought the KS Sophie was great, but then they said "Well, you can swap her for a Nethermaul, and nearly everyone ditched Sophie.


    Reaper isn't Anti-exclusives- but they are Anti-waste (so they won't have a plastic mold made that they're not intending to use a bunch).

    • Like 4
  3. After following a lot of the discussions on the Starcadia Quest Kickstarter, I'm starting to become aware of some changes to how crowdfunding goes.  While there has always been a concern that crowdfunding is not good to retail stores.  This tends to be countered by ICv2's sales numbers (hobby retail sales continued to rise after Kickstarter hit). 


    But I'm starting to wonder if there's a different dynamic going on here where retail releases might be damaging some crowdfunded projects.

    Here are a few examples:

    - A few of CMON's recent Kickstarter projects have unannounced exclusives in them.  Massmorra: Dungeons of Arcadia had a lot of exclusive content (as all CMON projects do) as well as some non-exclusive expansions.  But it seems like the non-exclusives got cancelled after the Kickstarter.  Similar things seem to be happening with World of Smog: Rise of Moloch, and Arcadia Quest Riders.  This has led a lot of people to wonder if any of the non-exclusive content for Starcadia or Cthulhu: Death May Die will actually be available at retail (as planned).

    CMON has been trying hard to appeal to retailers (they have a "pay later" system for retailers who want to get the KS exclusive version of their games).  And they continue to release non-Kickstarted games.  But I wonder if their Kickstarters are keeping some games away from the retail shelves.



    - Monolith did well on Kickstarter with their Conan game, but from what they've said, the retail release actually lost them money (because they couldn't sell the game at a profitable price point through distributors).  This led to BATMAN being a Kickstarter Exclusive game.  I mean, if you can't sell Batman at retail, you've got to be crazy.



    - Steamforged bent over backwards for retailers during their (very successful) Dark Souls campaign.  Not only did they have retailer pledges and no KS exclusives, they also had some stretch goals for things that would only go to retail.  Like, they won't take your pledge money for it, they were ONLY selling through retail.

    I wonder if that didn't go as well for them as I'd thought because their subsequent Resident Evil campaign had some exclusives, and it looks like the Horizon: Zero Dawn project doesn't even have the "retailers click here" link.



    -  There are a few other companies that match the pattern, but might not constitute a trend.  7th Continent, Street Fighter, and HATE were completely exclusive campaigns for reasons that might not be related to retailers refusing to stock Kickstarted games. And Clearly some games can do really well on Kickstarter and do well at retail.  And others just sell through their own online stores. 


    Anyway- does anyone have thoughts on this?



    Mods- I wasn't completely sure if this post should be in this forum, as I am trying to discuss a trend across several Kickstarters, and not just a single one.  Please move it if you think there's a better home for it.

    • Like 2
  4. On 7/29/2018 at 3:43 PM, Dilvish the Deliverer said:

    I'm landing at DFW at 2:34 pm.  Looking catch a ride or ride share with someone.  I'm not the kimd of guy that needs to know everything not (back, I only just bought my tickets last week), and worse comes to worse, I can just catch an Uber.



    I'm coming in at 3:30 pm (probably).  I could split an Uber with you- or we could both wait longer and try to do a shuttle with a big group of us.

    • Like 1
  5. The Homestarrunner folks have a kickstarter up for Trogdor!! the Board Game.

    There is an option to get the game with some cute meeples, or a set of miniatures.



    Anyone think they can make those minis look really good?  It is certainly a challenge.

    • Like 3
  6. Quick question- does bankruptcy protect a company against their Kickstarter promises?  Because, if NJ isn't taking out bank loans, then there's not a whole lot that it would do for them.  And remember, bankruptcy does not mean the end of a business (although it is horrific PR, but a lot of companies get out of it).  

    I certainly hope that they don't go under, though it does look like their expenses have gone over.  I certainly hope they can save their company (to be honest, I'd be out a lot more than just the one KS worth of stuff).   The company has just been going on for too long without regular releases (due to their KS projects) and I'm sure that's hurt them a lot.

    It seems like their first priority is to partly deliver on all of their Kickstarters, to garner some good will, and they seem to be trying to support their company with smaller releases in the mean time.  I suspect that a few Kickstarter items that I'm most excited for will be a low priority (the Mutant Chronicles crossovers, for example).


    I actually think that a number of their recent moves have been smart ones.  The Masterclass line is pretty great (although you have some folks swearing to not give them a dime, others are happy to buy cool minis from them).  The Ninja All Stars crossover is also really good (and adds value to product that is just sitting in their warehouse right now).  They also have Doomseeker coming out soon (a card game that is probably relatively cheap to produce, but with really nice art and the Warhammer setting attached to it).


    They've definitely dug themselves into a hole, but to me it looks as though they're actually digging themselves out of it (slowly, and with Super Dungeon Legends at the bottom of the priority list).

    • Like 1
  7. Well that's odd.  With the Signum KS, people couldn't see or comment, but they could still drop.


    I seriously doubt that any funds will be collected, but I guess we'll know for sure sometime later today?

    • Like 2
  8. 18 hours ago, pinkymadigan said:


    The guys from Moon Design (US TM holders for Heroquest) and Mike Selinker (worked on lots of stuff including Pathfinder Card Game and Thornwatch), as well as a few other lesser known designers were all very active in warning backers away from HQ25.



    Tabletop Gaming News (run by CMON) also warned people away from Heroquest 25 (basically exposing that they didn't own the rights to Hero Quest the way that Gamezone claimed). 

    CMON got some backlash about that at first- as a lot of people saw them as slandering a rival Kickstarter company (to be perfectly honest, CMON worked with Gamezone previously as their US caster and distributor- I'm not sure when that relationship ended).



    I've never seen the comments section remain open with a shut down kickstarter, and I've never seen the clock continue to run (which it also has).

    • Like 2
  9. 18 hours ago, cmorse said:


    I don't think I'm backing this one, but as a rule CMON's play through videos are horrible. Blood Rage is supposed to be great, but even now I can't bring myself to try it due to the bad impression the kickstarter play through left.



    I rarely watch their gameplay videos, but I can definitely recommend Blood Rage- it is a terrific game (even if you don't get the KS version)

  10. 13 minutes ago, Darsc Zacal said:

    Interesting. When kickstarter has suspended previous projects, they basically removed the project and the link would go to a simple statement saying the project had been suspended.


    With this project, kickstarter has allowed continued full visibility to the project and the comments section remains active.





    Yeah- I like that.  We can still see all the problems right now.  It was kind of difficult to discuss Signum because we could never double check whether a particular mini had been part of the Kickstarter.

    Also- the celebration in the comments section is kind of hilarious:



    All I can say is 
    WELL DONE EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!!! 
    You have been part of something bigger than just a 'bad kickstarter' (putting it mildly) 
    The way people have come together to protect fellow backers has been truly humbling. 
    Hopefully Kickstarter will learn some much needed lessons, by coming together we made a difference, even just a little one, but a very inspiring one. 
    you should all feel VERY proud!!!!!!


  11. 7 minutes ago, Maledrakh said:

    This is the kind of Kickstarter campaign that highlights the "buyer beware" bit of kickstarter.


    also, the Kickstarter company might want to be more proactive when something most likely will add to giving Kickstarter and crowdfunding in general a bad name.




    It is a balancing act.  If Kickstarter regulates their projects, then they might be charged with some liability for the actions of the project creators (which they are currently free from due to their non-regulating policies).

    And gate keeping isn't in line with the ideology that Kickstarter represents (a lot of the point is to bypass usual business gate keeping by going straight to the audience).

    At the same time, frauds give a bad name to the platform.  Backers are already more wary and quicker to call fraud than they were a few years ago.

    With a project like this- I'm kind of surprised that so many people back and forget.  I suppose that if they frequently forget the projects that they've backed, then they'll just forget their money and not feel like the victims of fraud that they are.

    By the way- Kicktraq does keep tracking a kickstarter's defunding during this period of darkness.  If Rising Sands appeases KS enough to let them put their page back up (and they might, since they've already stated that they won't use that rulebook) then we'll still be able to see how many more people dropped because of the blackout.

    • Like 1
  12. 3 minutes ago, Smokestack said:


    I don’t disagree with this. For my part I believe that the creator has done some really mind blowingly dumb things. They have done everything they are being accused of. I am not sure if they are scammers or just really dumb. I don’t think it will deliver, but $1 is not a huge risk. If they are just dumb, I feel bad for them.



    I'm completely in favor of donating $1 to keep an eye on a project like this.  I did this for Confrontation (which I believe will not deliver) because I want to see the end of it up front.

    To be honest, I don't like that I haven't had a front seat for a lot of the Kickstarter fraud projects.  I kind of wish I'd donated $1 to AVP, since even now it is hard to tell what happened).

    I honestly think that a lot of projects get decried as fraudulent when they're just really late.

    And if they pull it together, despite all indications to the contrary, well then that's great to know as well.

  13. I think it comes from the way that we usually feel like a wronged party should be defended.  We like rooting for the underdog.

    First off- there are so many legitimate things to accuse Foxtale of, that it seems absolutely ludicrous to also make up allegations.


    This kickstarter is run by people I believe to be Pakistani criminals (copyright violations and conspiracy to commit fraud).  The Pakistani part is a red flag only because there's no way to hold them accountable under US or Canadian law, but not for any other reason.  The bigotry is a real shame.


    Do I think it is a good idea to back this kickstarter?  Well, not if you see your money as anything other than a donation towards whatever these guys want to do with it (probably not deliver a game, but I'm sure they'll spend it).

    But I'm not actually against donating $1 to keep an eye on something like this.  I paid $1 to keep an eye on the Confrontation kickstarter, even though I have no confidence that it will deliver anything.


    I honestly do hope that Kickstarter gets around to evaluating CMON's claim against Foxtale before the last 24 hours are up.  There is still time for KS to take the project down (as they did with Rising Sands with much shakier claims of copyright violation).

    The reason that this may not happen is because Foxtale have claimed that they will not use the plagiarized rulebook that they presented- that might be enough for Kickstarter to let this one take its natural course. 


  14. I had heard about the plagiarized rulebook, but I hadn't heard about the plagiarized company profile, bio, returns policy, facebook bio,  company logo, etc.

    If it were just the rulebook, I feel like it is possible for it to happen by mistake (it is still plagiarism, but maybe they hired someone to write their rules or convert them into an English rulebook with a full layout, and they went way too far, right?).

    With the other plagiarisms involved, I can't really see a way to give them the benefit of the doubt.  I really don't see any way that so much clear copy and pasting can be anything but deliberate.

    There's always a question about whether this represents incompetence or a scam, but either way, anyone choosing to back this project needs to be prepared to lose your money.

    • Like 3
  15. For those who believe that Hastur will be boxed separately- it looks as though "boxes" are just a part of how this game is organized.

    The game takes a note from legacy games (although it is not a legacy game).  Each Elder God and Scenario have their own boxes with the scenario rules, tokens, etc. and the CMON people consider the contents of those boxes to be spoilers.


    So, the fact that there are Cthulhu and Hastur "boxes" doesn't mean that those are retail boxes.  At least, that's my reading on it.

    • Like 2
  16. I think they're just trying to control the pacing, and overestimated their momentum.  I know that's why they do short campaigns (to keep the pacing up).


    CMON tend to have a lot of stretch goals figured out beforehand, but they tend to try and space the stretch goals for pacing rather than required funds (they don't want to run out of cool things before the last 48 hours).

    However, it seems like they made some mistakes here.  With their other games, adding more heroes is super exciting, but the Cthulhu mythos have always had more interesting monsters than heroes, so no one was excited about those.  And Dagon has just taken up too many stretch goals for too many days of their campaign.





    UPDATE:  Ok, now they've got an update that everyone was looking for.


    6 new episodes- essentially doubling the number of scenarios for the game, and a bunch of cool new monsters to boot.

    It seems CMON knows hot to turn things around,.  It took minutes to hit Dagon since that update.



    The next stretch goals are for an upgraded dash board (or dash holder) and more monsters.  When I got up this morning, the day was 5k negative (I was surprised) but after that update, they jumped up about 50k.

    • Like 2
  17. 2 hours ago, mvincent said:

    Exactly! CMON made zombie versions of their zombicide heroes, so making crazed versions of their Cthulhu Investigators seems like a natural.

    Now, I'd like to note that the game rules for the Zombivors non-good (it was super easy mode) and it obligated them to make two minis for each survivor from there on out (which meant that a bonus survivor pack would have two characters instead of four).

    I was really glad when they didn't keep up that nonsense in their other two Zombicide settings.

    • Like 3
  18. I can see why they would make this call.

    Honestly, SDL isn't the latest kickstarter that I've followed- but it seems to be the one where the fans are the most toxic.

    I blame this mostly on SPM's regular update policy.  When you're this late, then all your weekly update does is remind your backers about how late their game is.  And even if you do have something to show (and SPM have done this from time to time) they haven't been able to garner any good will for more than a week (because they won't have news two weeks in a row).


    With most super late projects, the creators say almost nothing for months, updating only when they have significant news.  Backers mostly forget about the project in the mean time.  Then, there's an update with some REAL ACTUAL NEWS in it- and backers are placated- up until they forget about the project again.

    10 hours ago, Asuranshadow said:

    Thanks for highlighting the comments. I think the stop to fluff updates is a good choice, it always irritated me to see them over and over, after all the updates on how close wave 1 was originally.  And from comments, I was not alone in annoyance.



    Yes, that's exactly my point.  I think that the fluff updates were bothering people a lot- more than no update at all would have.

    I'm honestly glad to see John Canice's word on how they're doing fulfillment (prioritizing smaller kickstarter obligations before taking on the big dog).  It seems like a reasonable plan to get out of the mess they're in.

    • Like 2
  19. Ok, I had heard that the Overturn rule book had plagiarized Massive Darkness.

    Oddly enough- the same thing happened with LOAD (the WIP rulebook was copied from Rum and Bones).  From what I heard, Archon had hired an outside game designer, and put the blame entirely on him (and got someone new to make the rules that shipped with LOAD).  It makes me wonder if the guy that plagiarized CMON last time is still getting work in the industry.

  20. That reminds me of an episode of The Office where a group broke off and stole all of their old clients.  They think their little business is doing great until they bring in an accountant:

    "Why do you think that no one else can offer these prices?"
    "Um... corporate greed?"



    • Like 2
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    • Haha 3
  21. On 6/22/2018 at 6:09 PM, Marvin said:

    I'm just not feeling safe enough with this one. The nebulous nature of their identity, as I believe someone put it, is a big flag for me. The prices also are in that too-good-to-be-true area that always scares me, though the idea that the core is a loss-leader or whatnot for the add-ons is a reasonable notion. I'd noticed that structuring. Still... I've grown entirely too conservative for a project this big with these flags. Ignorance or malevolence--I fear one or the other.



    The loss leader model can be a good one in some industries- but I honestly can't see it working for a Kickstarter, where the margins are often too tight already.


    I tend to worry about new companies that are convinced that they can offer a better deal than anyone.  I mean, if CMON or Reaper offer bundles of super cheap minis, I feel like I can trust that they've done the math.  But when it is a company that hasn't done minis in the past, I usually think that they've missed something in their calculation of expenses.

    • Like 3
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