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odinsgrandson

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Posts posted by odinsgrandson

  1. On 6/21/2018 at 11:26 AM, Balgin Stondraeg said:

     

    Good to know. I was a backer of Return of the Dragon (also only in for a few figures) and nobody ever told me anything about who filed the IP claim (although I had my suspicions).

     

     

    The story I had heard was that they got the proper license to use Bruce Lee and Brandon Lee's likenesses, but that their license ran out and they did not (or could not) renew it.  At least according to Alex Lim.  The story sounds plausible- they made such blatant usage of Bruce and Brandon Lee's names and likenesses, and especially claiming official license, that I'd be pretty astonished if the Lee estate didn't know about it.

    I honestly can't tell what happened with fulfillment, though.  And losing that license wouldn't necessarily mean that they can't ship to backers that paid when the license was up to date.  Some backers have reported receiving copies, and a few copies of it can be purchased in the wild (Game Kastle is selling them).  Some backers have reported receiving nothing, and absolutely none of the stretch goal/expansion content has been seen anywhere.

    (edited as I gathered confirmation on the story).

    • Like 1
  2. On 6/18/2018 at 3:34 PM, Glamberry said:

     

    I'm not sure if I would call it a high risk. If they were only showing renders and were a new start up company I would agree. But the game is already pretty much done as well as most of the minis, the ones that are not finished yet, they have been showing sculpting wips on and they posted a lot of the concept art on facebook. The company has been around for a good while and I have seen people ordering Minis in Retail and getting good quality Minis. Was the whole freeze thing shady?100% but I do believe Kickstarter would not risk any lawsuit which is why I do believe SD didn't specify any of their claims. Like Odinsgrandson said, going through with a lawsuit would mean that SD likely wouldn't be able to deliver on their own Kickstarter project, which seemed a lot more questionable in some regards than the Signum one (not sure how that project will be profitable). That being said, I did definitely no pledge for all in. That's just too big of a spend for me personally on my hobby to justify. 

     

     

    On one hand, they've got some things going for them:

     

    - Professional looking kickstarter
    - Mini sculpts are largely finished

    - Fairly prompt and continuous communication

    - Company (probably) has a history getting sculpts made and fulfilling orders and has other income

    - The quality of their sculpts indicates that they have been working with industry professionals

     

    Risk assessment is kind of a tough thing to call, but there is risk here.

    - First time Kickstarter (they aren't accustomed to delivering on a grand scale)

    - First time game designer (if you're not just backing for a pile o' minis, this is important).
    - Questionable company background (the line started as Legends of Cadwallon, and were sold in the Cadwallon store alongside Rackham recasts).  Signum makes dubious claims about the separation of Cadwallon and Signum.
    - The shut down itself is a red flag- although it might be a red herring (because it is hard to believe that Sans Detour are running their company in good faith).

    Aside from simply adding to the perceived risk of the project, the shutdown deflated excitement over the project (and this kickstarter has definitely lost the momentum it had).


    Personally, I'm keeping an eye on the bad blood between Signum and Stellar/Sans Detour.  Both claim the other sent trolls to attack them.

    The big risk is whether Sans Detour feels justified in cutting off their own nose to get back at Signum.  If we look at the same risk assemssment to Sans Detour, here's what I think it looks like:
     

    pros:
    - Company has delivered crowdfunded RPG books before
    - Company sells RPG books (in France).
    - Company was able to attain Confrontation license

    Cons:

    - They've never produced miniatures of any kind before
    - They  offer "the highest quality" PVC/ABS mix minis at prices better than a Reaper Bones kickstarter (254 minis, many of them large for $300).
    - They unlocked all of their extras when the funding was dropping.

    - The Kickstarter page itself required minimal investment in the project (just photoshopping old Rackham photos).

    - One of the owners has a store that has gone bankrupt- which indicates that their other revenue streams are limited.
    - One of the owners is licensing the Confrontation property to the company- meaning that they can pay practically any amount of money to themselves without risking the license itself being a company asset in case of bankruptcy
    - Very Poor communication

    - Kickstarter thought that their IP claim had no leg to stand on.

     

    Honestly, I think it would be a supreme tragedy if Stellar decides that the most important use of their Kickstarter funds is to put Signum out of business through a protracted legal battle, but I can't really say that I trust their judgement.

     

    The trouble is, it would give them an excuse.  I mean, it is entirely possible that they know that they can't deliver on their project without more funds.  Maybe they hope to fund their kickstarter with a legal victory against Signum.  That would be a horrible plan, but I can't give Sans Detour a lot of credit for making good plans.

    • Like 6
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  3. I was really wondering what the funding progress would look like for this one.  This is the first kickstarter that I've ever seen come back after being taken down for a copyright claim.  It is also the first time I think that the copyright claim was made out of spite.

    Clearly, they lost a LOT of funding throughout the days in which they couldn't take on new backers (but backers could drop).  They had some positive days when they came back, but it looks like they've lost a bit too and are mostly holding steady since the KS's return.

    Since Kickstarters are always at least a little risky, I suspect that even the rumor of shenanigans is probably enough to hurt the funding level. 



    We only have Signum's version of how the copyright claim went:  Stellar made a very vague claim against the entire project.  Kickstarter followed their policy- they shut them down for three weeks, then decided that the claim had no merit and let them open back up.

    I do not believe that there are any big changes to the Kickstarter (I had figured that if Stellar's claim had merit, then Signum would have to change a few minis to be in the clear).

    Stellar (Sans Detour) won't make any of their claims or opinions on the matter public unless they have to.  That will only happen if they take further legal action against Signum, and doing that would prevent them from completing their own kickstarter (which is probably doomed anyway).

    • Like 1
  4. On 5/14/2018 at 4:00 PM, Balgin Stondraeg said:

     

    Unless you're playing the Twilight Knight In training campaign variant in which case you should absolutely get attached to one particular survivor because if they die it's game over......




    Yeah, the twilight knight campaign is pretty rough, and only for that reason.

    On 5/15/2018 at 6:38 AM, Rahz said:

    Yup! Sadly, one of my buddies won't play anymore because he lost 2 characters in one night.  Tried explaining to him that the survivors are just about as transitory as the resources you hack off your quarries, but that wasn't what he wanted to hear.  :rolleyes:  I love that game!

     

     

    I don't like how the "heroic mode" takes the teeth out of the game completely, but you could try that with him.

    I've been considering a "princess coin" mode (to go with the Super Dungeon crossovers).  Basically, instead of reproducing, you gain "coins" that bring survivors back to life.  Ultimately, it would make it WAY more possible to focus on a few survivors without making the game super easy.

  5. On 6/2/2018 at 7:44 AM, Chaoswolf said:

    That's really cool!!

     

    (No pun intended)

     

    Thanks, but intentional or not, all puns go to hell.

     

    On 6/1/2018 at 11:22 PM, giyomuSan said:

    love the look of the metal for armour , great stuff

     

    Thanks. 

     

    I believe that a number of those spots are meant to be leather, but I wasn't confident that they'd survive like that, so anything that could be convincing as metal was painted metal.  Overall, I felt like I needed to make the metals really dark to keep them from fighting with his composition, and I think it worked out.

  6. On 5/25/2018 at 4:28 PM, Balgin Stondraeg said:

    There were some diehard Confrontation fans spewing hostility and negativity in the Legends of Signum kickstarter comments for the first few days (days 2-4). They eased off after an initial attack. I can't say how many of the people asking questions about what material the miniatures would be made of in the Confrontation comments section were innocent inquiries or related to Cadwallon at all.

     

    There were a couple people who were there that thought of Cadwallon as a heroic robin hood type- but it seemed like most of the critics of Confrontation recognized that what Cad was doing was clearly illegal (some of them said that they appreciated it while the property was in complete limbo, but would prefer legitimate sources on minis, etc).

     

    There were accusations that anyone talking about the math on Confrontation fulfillment were in the pay of recasters.  I was accused of such myself after I posted up my own "I can't see how this is economically viable, and my concerns were confirmed by an industry professional that I talked to last evening" post.

    One of Sans Detour's official spokespersons accused all detractors of being trolls- and there was an attitude that "True Confrontation Fans" would want Confrontation to come back so much that they wouldn't shirk at the host of red flags on display.

     

    Most of Confrontation's lost backers dropped down to $1 (even after SD said that they wouldn't let the $1 backers upgrade in the pledge manager).  That makes me think that most are authentic fans (or at lest reserving their seats for the train wreck).

     

    I don't think I'd be all that surprised if Sans Detour did send some of their people over to try and sabotage Signum (especially if they thought it was it was happening to them).  But most of the Confrontation detractors were clamoring for SD to end the failing campaign and start over so that they could do Confrontation right.  I felt like that was decent Kickstarter advice, and I don't think that saboteurs would be doing that.

  7. On 5/24/2018 at 12:28 PM, Original Timmy said:

     

    I believe they need to list to KS what is infringing and with proof otherwise anyone could get a KS shutdown, its also no good just saying "their game looks like ours" as CMON and ND/S$P would be doing that to each other and to all other "Chibi" games on KS.

     

    Im quite friendly with a creator that had his KS "New York Bop" miniature skirmish game brought down by 20th century fox(or which ever studio owns the "Warriors" IP) as it was "too inspired"/IP infringing, we had a good chat about it and he told me the things the film studio had a problem with, which were the theme of the KS page was all in "Warrior" colors, all minis were all painted as "Warriors" without the "Warrior" name patch  and 1 mini was to close to source, he repainted the minis a different color, changed the KS color theme and got the infringing mini re-sculpted and re-launched his game on KS under "NYC Street Wars" and had no problems, funded well and either just fulfilled or in the fulfilment stage.

     

     

    I doubt that CMON and NJ would engage in these sorts of shenanigans, because it is clearly bad PR.  When they split, both sides publicly announced that it was amicable in every way.  Fans speculate about how much they hate each other, and blame one or the other for screwing things up (and it is logical that something must have caused the rift).

    It is good to know that Stellar has to say what the problems are- because that will give Signum a chance to actually fix it and be completely legit.  I'm still worried that this is more of a grudge match that can't end well.  The 20th Century Fox people didn't hate your friend and want to sink his business, and that makes solutions easier.

  8. From things that I've read, it sounds as if both sides were accusing the other of sabotaging their Kickstarter comments.

    For all I know, the bad blood between them might actually go deep enough for them to pull that kind of crap.

     

    It is in everyone's best interest if they stay out of court- neither company can afford a protracted court battle.  If Sans Detour will only be satisfied if Signum is destroyed, then Signum will have to defend themselves.

    And that will contribute to the excuses Sans Detour will give as to why they couldn't deliver on their promises.

  9. On 5/22/2018 at 3:00 PM, cmorse said:

    I always find these sorts of cases really interesting to watch when it come to seeing which side people take. Usually it's all about how people feel about the company rather than anything to do with that actual level of infringement. Could you imagine these forums if a KS infringed on Reaper to this same level? No one would care about subtleties like it possibly being a third party getting infringed on rather than directly Reaper.

     

    Brand loyalty definitely plays into this a lot.  I had seen the Signum KS while it was going on, and my thought was "those look like better versions of Confrontation figs, and I bet they deliver."

     

    I was really surprised when it was taken down.  But so many people knew immediately that it was Sans Detour/Stellar- and that means that we could have seen this coming.

     

    The problem with Sans Detour is that they just took 400K Euros from people and probably will never deliver.  And it isn't hard to believe that SD don't actually intend to deliver on their Kickstarter.

    Signum/Cadwallon are in a better PR position, but worse legal position.  They've clearly broken the law with their recasts, but a lot of fans were happy to have the minis available at all.  Ironically, it is very possible that the Confrontation Classic Kickstarter will be responsible for the end of Confrontation minis being available to fans.

    Neither company has been very honest, so there's that.

     

    I wonder how Kickstarter behaves in cases like these.  I mean, do they ask for SD to bring forward their case?  Do they have then specifically name the items that they feel are infringing?  That would give Signum the opportunity to simply delete those items and restart their Kickstarter (and get funding).

    From what Signum has been saying, it sounds like Stellar aren't naming particular minis or names that they want changed.  That doesn't work in a proper court of law, but if they're only dealing with Kickstarter policy, then things are different.

    • Like 2
  10. Some people on the Confrontation KS comments linked to a piece of unused concept art (probably made for Rackham) and a mini that were based on that artwork.

    I don't think that mini was part of the Kickstarter, but I didn't follow LoS that closely.  Still, it seems as though LoS could just drop a few minis from their kickstarter and they'd be fine.

     

    7 hours ago, cmorse said:

    Take a look at the woman with the fan in the Guild of Merchants set on the LoS website and then look at the box cover for the game Arcana from FFG. I think it's a safe guess that's one of the ones SD is complaining about. I don't know if there are any others that are that close, but SD would probably win on at least that one in a US court.

     

    One of the things I learned from the Chapterhouse lawsuit is that you have to prove that you own the work of art that's being copied- just owning the IP that the art is associated with isn't enough.  And those rights are determined by the particular contracts with particular artists (which can be different from artist to artists, and sometimes the rights aren't clearly spelled out at all and simply revert to the artists).

     

    When I was sculpting licensed minis from various book properties, I did not base them off of the book covers, because I was licensed by the author (who owns the characters) and not the publisher or artist (who split ownership of the cover).

     

    I wonder if Rackham actually owned that particular piece of art, or if Fantasy Flight Games or the original artist own it.  I mean, a lot of those joint projects become unpublishable once the relationship is dissolved because the rights are muddled between the the companies (or else Heroquest, Space Crusade and Chaos in the Old World would get new editions).

    But if Stellar doesn't own that particular piece of art (or if they can't prove it) then they don't have a claim (and I'm sure that FFG aren't interested in protecting the Confrontation IP).

    • Like 4
  11. Those elements still don't seem like enough to make the kickstarter drop that consistently.   Those are definitely reasons why some backers would ditch, but I still feel like there should be something more to explain the consistently dropping totals.


    I mean, they need to start off with something that makes people interested enough to click 'pledge' and then make those same people disappointed/angry/apathetic enough to drop.  With Confrontation, they had some $1 backers who were continually repeating all the red flags (there were a lot) and the creators were barely communicating.

    I can see the competition hitting it pretty hard, but if people are all dropping to back something else, that should hit a lot of games (not just this one).

    Have the stretch goals and reveals been lackluster?  Has the communication been bad?  Did they release a rulebook that looks terrible?  Is anyone suggesting that the company is untrustworthy?

  12. We all have our fandoms, and here's a particular one that I haven' been able to pay homage to before.  Here's a couple that look like they might be escaping one of the more dangerous facilities in the universe.

    It has been really fun to work on some of these cosplayer sets that where the characters aren't dressed in normal wedding attire at all.

    topper-science-fiction.jpg?i=468410250

    • Like 11
    • Thanks 1
  13. Thanks, mod.

    21 hours ago, Olaf the Stout said:

    Wow, I don't think I've ever seen a successful Kickstarter with 22 out of the last 25 days being negative funding, including the last 13 days in a row of the campaign. That's impressively bad.

     

     

    Quite a few backers thought that everything would be WAY better if they'd cancel and come back later.

    Overall, it got its initial bump due to the Confrontation reputation, but started bleeding shortly after that.  It is the culmination of several factors.  Here's a quick summary of the red flags:

     


    - The price is too good to be true.  Many backers estimated the cost of making molds for all the unique minis they're offering (they started by offering 178 unique sculpts- many of them quite a bit larger than a human).  Long story short- it looks like they're not raising enough funds to deliver on their kickstarter, and it is unlikely that they could even try to go with the sort of 'top tier PVC' that they're talking about.

     

    - Sans Detour have never made minis before- so when they tell us that they can offer better prices than anyone else, many of us wonder if they're doing their math right.  If it were Reaper, I'd have just believed them.


    - With funds dropping, they just unlocked everything as if they'd just hit 1.2 million.  So now they can produce even more minis for even less money.
     

    - They offered a full resin tier at prices there looked like a net loss as well.

     

    - They locked down their main pledge level to 4000 pledges (they only got about 1200 at the end), and insisted that no one will be allowed to upgrade from the $1 pledge after the campaign ends (this raised concerns that SD was planning on losing money on their core pledges and needed to keep them in check).


    - Sans Detour decided to downplay and obfuscate their relationship with Stellar and Ludik.  Ludik is a retailer that's going out of business and happens to be owned by one of SD's partners and share SD's address.  Stellar is the company that is licensing the rights to Sans Detour- and happens to be owned by one of Sans Detour's partners.  They denied, downplayed and obfuscated the relationship between these companies.

    It is just never a good sign for Kickstarter creators to not be honest about who they are.

    - Poor communication with inadequate English skills exacerbated all of the above problems (updates didn't address concerns, or were just wonky).  They ultimately seemed unconcerned with the dropping numbers on their kickstarter.


    -The result- Ultimately, almost HALF of the backers who stayed are pledging for $1 (that's 1100 $1 pledges)- many of the vocal ones have admitted that they just want to sit back and watch.  About 1200 backers pledged at the $300 level, 5 backers pledged for resin.

     

    And one post mortem red flag:  Stellar/Sans Detour got the Legends of Signum kickstarter taken down, and might be gearing up for a legal battle to try and keep Signum down (there's bad blood there, because the Signum line started as a continuation of Confronation- originally "Legends of Cadwollon").

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  14. CMON have been doing a lot of experiments, and here's a five day campaign for an expansion that can't be played without one of the other base games.
     

    Also, this is the pre-orderiest kickstarter campaign ever.  They're running through their first printing (delivers in July- that means these things pretty much have to be on the water by now, and the second wave hitting in November means that they'll just be ordering another printing).

    It makes me wonder if they developed it as a normal retail release, then decided to move it to kickstarter fairly late in the day.

     

  15. I went into the Exo comments section, and a lot of people are talking about whether or not the game is a good enough value for their asking price.  Honestly, I kind of think that's not enough to explain this kind of a graph.

    It isn't a very big kickstarter (about 100k Euros right now).  Unlike Confrontation, the brand doesn't have that legacy aspect to it.

    Has the campaign been run very poorly?  Have there been any shenanigans about the company structure?  Has there been any major changes to gameplay?

  16. From the Signum statement, Stellar (SD) was fighting them about copyright violations, but hadn't let them know which minis were in violation.

    I'm still not in a place where I think I can trust either of the companies involved here, but I'm still enthralled.

    • Like 2
  17. 16 hours ago, ced1106 said:

    On Dakka, a poster is guessing that it's a Confrontation *supporter*, not SD who's behind it. 

     

    Doesn't really make sense to shut down the project *after* funds have been collected, unless it's to use the funds for legal reasons instead of the project.


    - It has been confirmed that this happened due to Stellar/Sans Detour.  Here's the Lumen's page on the claim (I found this through a poster on the LoS facebook page).  https://www.lumendatabase.org/notices/16525981#

     

    - The claim was issued on the 9th, so it is entirely possible that Stellar intended it to take down the Signum kickstarter before their own was finished (that actually would have been a worse move, in my opinon).

     

    - It probably would have hurt the already struggling Confrontation Classic Kickstarter even more had this come out before the finish of the campaign.  Among Confrontation fans, Cadwallon is a controversial topic (some blame recasters for the failure of Confrontation Phoenix, while others were simply happy to be able to buy the minis).

    • Thanks 4
  18. I thought the line started out as "Legends of Cadwallon."  Like a spiritual successor to Confrontation, you know?  I honestly didn't know that Cadwallon didn't own the rights to Confrontation for a long while.

    If the Confrontation people are behind the shutdown, it is probably because of the bad blood with Cadwallon.  I can't see how they'd have much of a case, but that doesn't mean that it won't hurt the campaign and game.

     

     

    @Darsc Zacal Yeah- I've been over there- all I've seen so far is "We promise to let you know what's going on, but fight now we've got to find out what's going on."

  19. I've been following the conversations about this over at the Confrontation Kickstarter.

    I was wondering- what is the relationship between Cadwallon and Legends of Signum?  Some people were saying that Cadwallon were trying to hide their identities during the campaign.

    I wish I could still see the KS page and find out what Signum had to say about this.

  20. 4 hours ago, Balgin Stondraeg said:

     

    My current thoughts:

     

    1: Bet it's Confrontation.

    2: Well that can't be good. I haven't seen a project recover from an IP dispute yet. Seen it shut down 2 good projects after they got funded.

    3: Even if the IP infringement claim is false the damage it could cause in terms of confidence and pulled pledges could be pretty monumental.



    1- Yeah- they just finished their kickstarter, and collected their money.  They have a history with Cadwallon, and I don't think they have any idea what they should be doing with those funds they collected.
    2- Yeah, that's bad.  I was wondering what good projects you've seen get shut down like this?  The only ones I can think of were Heroquest 25 and Alien vs. Predator (some of the worst reputations on kickstarter).
    3- If it doesn't get resolved VERY quickly, it could hurt a LOT.  But they could also reset their campaign.

  21. NEW DEVELOPMENTS!  I wasn't expecting that so soon.

    The Legends of Signum Kickstarter has been taken down due to a possible copyright violation.  This was very likely the work of the people behind the Confrontation kickstarter.

    Legends of Signum is a line of miniatures made by Cadwallon.  Cadwallon have, for quite some time, been a source for new casts of Confrontation miniatures (I don't know the details, but I figure they didn't have the rights).  Sans-Detour/Stellar handed them a cease and desist sometime ago, and Cadwallon have ceased producing and selling Confrontation minis.

    Legends of Signum was Cadwallon's own line of minis that had a similar style to the old Rackham minis (they were original sculpts, but they could fit in with a Rackham force). 

     

    While we do not yet have confirmation, it is very likely that Sans Detour/Stellar is responsible for taking down the Legends of Signum kickstarter (Kickstarter policy is to take down any campaign immediately if they receive a C&D, and wait for the dispute to be resolved). 

     

    This has been a subject of much discussion in the kickstarter comments.  And I thought it was going to be a while before there was any news from Confrontation Classic.

    Anyway, we can all debate as to whether SD is spending all of their newly acquired kickstarter money on legal fees.

    • Like 3
  22. On 5/17/2018 at 3:45 PM, Balgin Stondraeg said:

    Now that it's all over I see a lot of people in the comments section making out that they've done really well. Surely they did really well early on in the campaign and then slumped bigtime. Not much mention of that 'though.

     

     

    You're being too polite.  With a bit "slump" in the middle of a campaign, the numbers are still mostly positive.  This campaign bled through the middle and finish of the campaign, finishing off well below their Day 1 total.

     

    With most big campaigns, the finishing total is about three times the starting boost's total.  By that measure, this campaign should have ended at about two million Euroes (starting boost got them to 650k).


    I do think it is really special the way that some backers want to try and make it sound like some amazing victory of a campaign.  I mean, the numbers for the last few hours were positive, but the final day still finished a thousand below zero.

     

    dailypledges.png

    • Like 3
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