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Timberhick

Faction Books

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It seems that some are missing what I meant with the Popcorn Campaign book Breakdown would be something like this:

ToC(table of contents)

Introduction(2 pages)

Clarifications and/or changes to rules(? pages)

New rules/concepts(2-3 pages[depending on illustrations and the like no more then 5 I would say])

New units(18 pages)(figure 6 for each faction[4units and 2 characters]on 2 full pages per faction)

Hobby information(10-20 pages)(modeling, terrain, converting, etc)

Campaign(10-20 pages)

Fluff(50+ pages)(intermix throughout the whole book)

 

 

The Popcorn Campaign book ends up being around 120-150 pages, everyone has something to see and use.

 

A really big thing issue for me with this type of set up is, playtesting. Reaper and the playtest crew only has to worry about 6 units per faction. Instead of trying to playtest and concept up a complete faction book or should say books at one time, this allows the designers to narrow in on a more specific aspect of each faction.

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Anyone have any facts on the role of the faction books and the relation to the faction lists in the core rule book? Additional units that expand the list or rules that replace them?

I have seen some alpha versions of more than one book, and I know that they will be a "expansion" force list - and will include alternate characters. (By alternate I mean, Don't think MageX is worth 200+ points - here's a Mage for Faction X for less . . . here's a captain with cleric or mage so you don't even need to take a dedicated mage)

 

I have seen nothing that indicates that the core rules, or the faction lists within the core rules, are being invalidated. In fact, I have seen quite the opposite - the new "rosters" (I hope that's the right term) seem to play upon the strengths of a given faction and make your core army not less useful, but more. By keeping 90% of your force and adding in one character or one troop from the faction books, you become that much more capable at what your faction strength is. Versatility will also come in, as new grunts will be introduced which will give you new tactics and options, but are balanced not to make your current 1000, 2000, or 3000 point force obsolete.

 

Will there be Faction Creep? I think not - Each new book may open up new options to just one army, but they are being planned with the knowledge that they have to be balanced against a straight core rules force. (And alternately, they are balanced against the new units inside as well, so a force made of no core units from Faction X could be level with a group of Core Units from Faction Y, or of non-core units from Y, or mixed for wither faction, etc. etc.)

 

We have until February for Faction Book Number 1 -- Necropolis Thule. Nothing I can say here can settle this debate for once and for all. Just let me say that part of the reason it will take until February (4 months away) is because of the playtesting. Again - I can't settle this debate - but I hope here I can make some people less uneasy and add a bit of excitement.

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Elandaria and Arganox were discontinued because they had sales figures that were worse than Dibbler's meat-pies. They never had Warlord stats, and therefore cannot be obsoleted.

 

Just picking a nit.

I have the Arganox model, he's ina Warlord wrapper? Wouldn't that mean he was part of the Warlord line?

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Elandaria and Arganox were discontinued because they had sales figures that were worse than Dibbler's meat-pies.  They never had Warlord stats, and therefore cannot be obsoleted.

 

Just picking a nit.

I have the Arganox model, he's ina Warlord wrapper? Wouldn't that mean he was part of the Warlord line?

yes, both models were definitely part of the warlord line. But as I said earlier (and Frosch put so eloquently) they weren't selling. 14001 was the first model produced...long before the rulebook was published. And with no sales they decided to discontinue both of them before the cards were made too. Therefor, they never had stats. But they were still in the warlord line *ducking Frosch* ::P:

 

and I'll be quiet now before I'm told I'm wrong again.

 

debby ::D:

 

 

*what Frosh said* - obviously a faster typer

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Elandaria and Arganox were discontinued because they had sales figures that were worse than Dibbler's meat-pies.  They never had Warlord stats, and therefore cannot be obsoleted.

 

Just picking a nit.

I have the Arganox model, he's ina Warlord wrapper? Wouldn't that mean he was part of the Warlord line?

From what I am given to understand, those 2 models are not a part of the Warlord game and thus have no Warlord stats. I believe this is only because they were retired before the rules came out.

 

Obviously there will be other models retired from production over the years as sales slow. It is anyones guess as to wether or not those models will remain valid in tourney games. I would hope to heck that they would still be valid!!

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My comments are based on my comparitively small experience with Reaper but I firmly believe, based on my experiences, that Reaper won't do anything to undermine Warlord in any way.

 

Warlord is their flagship game and it's been tweaked and tested for years to come to it's present incarnation. I know they're proud of it and they have every right to be. After all these years and all this work they won't do anything to turn us off of it or make us start to view their company like some of us do the Greedy Wankers across the pond.

 

Bear in mind I'm slightly biased towards them because I've had nothing but good experiences with them. The Reaper folks are smart and seem pretty savvy, I'd be willing to bet dollars to danish's we won't be disapointed by the faction books.

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Regarding #4, which many others have mentioned, I see nothing in Reaper's track record that makes me think they would obsolete minis in future editions.  In fact, with the CAV 2.0 announcement, it was made very clear from the get-go that no miniatures would be made obsolete.

In going with Frosch's last statement, not only were we guaranteed that no models would be discontinued or made obsolete with CAV 2.0 they also said that some of the minis that people didnt use for whatever reason were going to get retooled and given a new role to make the more useful.

 

I am excited about the faction books coming out for Warlord and cant wait for the first one to hit the shelves. I will be buying them all just because I am a fluff junkie and i want to read them all. Plus you never know when I may decide to play that list. I am kinda flighty and change my mind alot!! ^_^

Jeremy, it would be helpful to the other people at GuardTower if you would make up your mind about which army you'll be playing ::P:

 

as far as "discontinuing minis" I am an avid Reaper fan, but they have made 2 Warlord models "obsolete" 14001 and 14034. Now, this is where Reaper has to remember they are running a business. If no one is buying the mini, they have every right to stop producing it. That doesn't mean that someone who already purchased it can't use it can they?

 

And I for one, can't wait for the faction books. I love fluff. It helps me figure out the motivations and background of my army and provides unifying information when I'm playing opponents.

 

debby ::D:

AHH!! But see there is the value in that!! You wont be able to plan for a certain force if I play them all and you dont know which one will be thwere from week to week!! HA HA!!

 

Actually I am gonna just focus on 3 at this point in time. Guess what 3 LOL :poke:

 

Speaking of the GT Bob and I are going to be playing a 2000 point game on the 6th.

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I think, Alandria or whatever name is was a poor seller due to the special ViC version of here just blew the "offical" Warlord version away, the addition of the helm & the GWish size sword, turned alot of people off that one as well. Not sure how many "Vickys" were casted for us Yahoo mini painter people but it sure is a rare mini now

 

 

for people that haven't see the Vicky version instead of a helm she is helmless with her long flowing locks & instead of the sword she has a wooden staff with a dragon head on it + I can't remember what the Warlord version had but her other hand is casting a spell (2 fingers are curved in a spell gesture). Also she has a base not a slot tab.

 

Argonox was a nice grunt mini, but I can see why he was discoed thou, it took me awile to pick him up.

 

I for one am looking forward to the faction books, more for the reading parts then anything as I'm not gonna play the game or at least not in the near future. I just like readin about the game world that one of my fav game suppilers has.

 

Randy M

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I have seen some alpha versions of more than one book, and I know that they will be a "expansion" force list

 

Excellent.

 

I have seen nothing that indicates that the core rules, or the faction lists within the core rules, are being invalidated.  In fact, I have seen quite the opposite - the new "rosters" (I hope that's the right term) seem to play upon the strengths of a given faction and make your core army not less useful, but more

 

This is exactly how I hoped it would be done. I really like the idea of getting a book with a decent amount of background story, pictures and cool new stuff and having it all be "extra" rather than a replacement.

 

By keeping 90% of your force and adding in one character or one troop from the faction books, you become that much more capable at what your faction strength is.  Versatility will also come in, as new grunts will be introduced which will give you new tactics and options, but are balanced not to make your current 1000, 2000, or 3000 point force obsolete.

 

Perfect. I really like that goal of not rendering the current armies obsolete. I'm curious as to how each faction's strengths will be kicked up a notch by adding a certain character or troop, but I guess I can wait. :down:

 

Will there be Faction Creep?  I think not - Each new book may open up new options to just one army, but they are being planned with the knowledge that they have to be balanced against a straight core rules force.

 

:B): Excellent. This way one can avoid the problem of a new person getting into the game, building forces only from the core book and losing every game to a super powerful "faction" army.

 

We have until February for Faction Book Number 1 -- Necropolis Thule.  Nothing I can say here can settle this debate for once and for all.  Just let me say that part of the reason it will take until February (4 months away) is because of the playtesting. 

 

If anything takes 4 months, I'm glad it will be play testing.

 

Again - I can't settle this debate - but I hope here I can make some people less uneasy and add a bit of excitement.

 

I think you've done that! I was quite worried that Warlord would follow the example of a certain large company in the wargaming business and start a spiral of creep, invalidation and flavour of the month marketting. Thanks for addressing my concerns. I would still prefer the multi-faction expansion book, but as long as my rules related concerns are groundless, I'm quite excited about individual faction books.

 

Nathaniel

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Speaking of the GT Bob and I are going to be playing a 2000 point game on the 6th.

Jeremy, let me know what time, I might stop in to watch.

 

On a side note, this friday I'll try to con Mike into painting one of the three WL army box sets for GT, I'll paint one, and maybe Debby will paint one, so we can run some demos with the box sets. Played a three way box game at the Asylum last weekend, and it works out very nicely. Whaddaya think?

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Speaking of the GT Bob and I are going to be playing a 2000 point game on the 6th.

Jeremy, let me know what time, I might stop in to watch.

 

On a side note, this friday I'll try to con Mike into painting one of the three WL army box sets for GT, I'll paint one, and maybe Debby will paint one, so we can run some demos with the box sets. Played a three way box game at the Asylum last weekend, and it works out very nicely. Whaddaya think?

It will be in the morning on the 6th, prob around 10:30 or 11. I have a dentist appointment first.

 

That sounds like a great plan! You guys are much better painters than I am so the demo minis will be well done at least!

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I have seen nothing that indicates that the core rules, or the faction lists within the core rules, are being invalidated. In fact, I have seen quite the opposite - the new "rosters" (I hope that's the right term) seem to play upon the strengths of a given faction and make your core army not less useful, but more. By keeping 90% of your force and adding in one character or one troop from the faction books, you become that much more capable at what your faction strength is. Versatility will also come in, as new grunts will be introduced which will give you new tactics and options, but are balanced not to make your current 1000, 2000, or 3000 point force obsolete.

 

Then why bother picking up the faction books if it's not changing much on how you play currently? Granting that you can with just the faction units and not use the corebook units this has no meaning (my last statement that is). If it's meaning that the dwarves now get a cleric character and one or two new units they didn't have before, but still need the corebook stuff to be effective then....

 

Will there be Faction Creep? I think not - Each new book may open up new options to just one army, but they are being planned with the knowledge that they have to be balanced against a straight core rules force. (And alternately, they are balanced against the new units inside as well, so a force made of no core units from Faction X could be level with a group of Core Units from Faction Y, or of non-core units from Y, or mixed for wither faction, etc. etc.)

 

So does this mean that they game isn't really evolving very much for the next 3 yrs or so? If everything is balanced back to the core book, that ends up being a severe check for the game. You wont be able to introduce anything groundbreaking because it has to be balanced by the corebook. All the cool nifty things that get thought/developed is either neutered or not implememented if it goes against/not balanced with what was already written.(by the use of faction books) But those same new ideas can be introduced if the game followed the Popcorn style. It effects everyone at the same time so there is no FoTM or Codex Creep

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Then why bother picking up the faction books if it's not changing much on how you play currently? Granting that you can with just the faction units and not use the corebook units this has no meaning (my last statement that is). If it's meaning that the dwarves now get a cleric character and one or two new units they didn't have before, but still need the corebook stuff to be effective then....

 

That's not what he said. He said you COULD still use your army as built using only Corebook units, but you COULD add one or two new specialty characters to enhance your army's abilitites. He never said you had to still use the corebook units to be effective, in fact I'm sure you could build an army using only units from the Faction book. Will it change how you play? Probably because it will offer you other tactical options that may not be available with just the Corebook units.

 

So does this mean that they game isn't really evolving very much for the next 3 yrs or so? If everything is balanced back to the core book, that ends up being a severe check for the game. You wont be able to introduce anything groundbreaking because it has to be balanced by the corebook. All the cool nifty things that get thought/developed is either neutered or not implememented if it goes against/not balanced with what was already written.

 

Are you trying to tell me that you don't think new concepts can be written which balance out to an existing game system? That you can't use a Core ruleset as a basis to add new features while keeping the overall balance? It's like writing a program extension to add new capabilities to an existing software application. Do you start all over or use the existing software and write an additional module to includ ethe new functionality, while making sure it works with the original software? In the real world, option two is what happens because it's too costly to toss all the investment made in that original software. That my good man, is the basis for proper design and that's what good programmers get paid for. It's not always easy, but far from impossible.

 

The same can be done for a game. All it means is that you can't jsut come up wiht a wild idea and implement. Instead you have to say ok, here is my concept, now how can I make that work within the parameters of the current environment. That's not hindering creativity, it's requiring creativity. If the RAGE game engine can be used for different game genre's, adding new concepts isn't going to be tough.

 

.(by the use of faction books) But those same new ideas can be introduced if the game followed the Popcorn style. It effects everyone at the same time so there is no FoTM or Codex Creep™

 

OK, I can see your point, but you are missing something. Your concern is that the new units will be more powerful than the current units. The thing you are missing is playtesting. New units would be playtested against units currently available at the time of playtesting, thus that would mean new units woudl be balanced against already existing units. Logically this means all units would be balanced agianst each other at any given time. Now, I know that isn't going to be 100% effective, but 90% is reasonable. There will always be a couple units people think are over powered no matter how you test them.

 

 

I don't know what else to say dude. You were just told by Bryan that your concerns aren't going to happen, but you won't believe him. At this point, you obviously won't accept any assurances you're given, so I'm not sure what else there is to say. :down:

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