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Playing Devils Advocate for a minute.....

 

 

 

 

 

Last night while driving back to the office for some late night server room fun, I got to thinking a little.

 

I was thinking to myself, what had attracted me to CAV 1. Having been a Battletech player for 20+ years, I had grown used to games involving 4 mechs taking hours to play due to all the rules and hings that bogged it down.

 

Sure, CAV 1 was a little rough around the corners and probably didnt have enough rules for it, but I was attracted to the fact that it was fairly simple, straight forward, and fast. You could concentrate on tactics, and blowing things up. The only slow down, problem if you will was the shear amount of rolling that was involved...

 

So, now I am reading these Beta rules and I am trucking along, seeing lots of cool things, things that add some needed tactics and strategy to the game that I thought CAV 1 was a little light in. When it comes to game mechanics, I love anyhting that requires or allows for some tactical thinking.

 

And I am getting excited.

 

But, then I keep reading, and reading, and reading, and seeing 100 different special abilities (does every model have to have a special ability?), 50 different Instants (spells if you will), lots of Area of Effect traits, Instants, and SAs, having to make discipline, shaken, and suppressed checks for every little thing, etc....

 

And I am starting to think, "wait a sec... "

 

This may be completely different than Battletech, but all of the things that drew me to CAV away from Battletech looks like is diapearing. With all of the SAs and Instants, discipline checks, and such, there is a ton of stuff to keep track of on the battlefield, and its gonna get way bogged down again.

 

My excitement over the new CAV 2 game mechanics were getting quickly overlayed by the tediousness of all the SAs and Instants, and stuff.

 

What happened to putting some metal on the table and duking it out?

 

I mean what if I have a CAV that is suppressed or shaken, making a run and gun from behind a nanostone with a salvo, while running across an enemies scatter mine trap, but firing at an stealth equipped enemy that i have thrown a thumper onto and have a friendly with ECCM within 6 inches, but is standing next to someone with ESM, but was scanned by a partner, and the target has deflect, oh and I am firing my salvo using the chain fire from a partner unit.

 

Mutiply the above by say, four or five sections worth of units and you have yourself a big headache trying to keep up with everything again.....

 

 

I just wanted to see if anyone else was having these kind of thoughts at all...

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CAV 2 is like a game of GO you know the game with the flat surface with a grid pattern and the white and black stones. You can teach someone to play in just a few moments, but it will take a lifetime to master.

 

CAV 2 is quick and simple. Yes it has quite a few variables in it, but I think that once you actually get to play in a game you'll find it flows very easily and that the layers of tactics will allow you to never fight the same battle twice.

 

Plus its no worse then figuring out how many of my LRM's hit after firing while moving with a plus one gunnery at a target that moved 6 hexs behind light cover with smoke on the field.

 

Mad Pat

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I don't see it as that bad, DCH.

 

Sure there's a lot there to digest, but the simplicity of CAV has been preserved, perhaps even enhanced by the changes.

 

You lose the multiple weapon lines in the datacards: Instead you have a number of Direct and Indirect attacks at a basic value. Two or more lines (5 in the worst case)on a datacard become one.

 

Instead of values for hard and soft targets for every damage track of every weapon in a game, you now have a single column that shows how much damage a model does. Soft targets take more damage from Shredder models, and it's a constant value. Hunter increases damage against non-soft models, and it's a Constant Value

 

Instead of extra weapon lines for DFM, we get salvoes that give us extra attacks at base values, for a small price.

 

Models with PBGs now have a REALLY good reason to be used, whereas before they were mostly just second-string choices.

 

Instead of a hojillion special rules about what weapons/equipment cause infantry to take up extra space in APCs, we now simply have Bulky, and instead of the three sentences that used to describe transport capacity we have a one word-special ability that defines it clearly on the data card.

 

Overly complicated rules for fielding cruise missiles as models have been basically eliminated.

 

Power (which IMO slowed things down immensely) is GONE. (YAY)

 

In additon, lots of things people wanted to see added to CAV have appeared as well. (I won't be naming them, in order to preserve some surprise).

 

I'm already starting to be able to look at a data card and understand exactly what that model is capable of. That's a very good thing for a Game that's been in our hands a little more than 36 hours.

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while there are alot of abilties and instants youll usually only have a couple of instants that actually get used in one battle depending on the infantry taken and keeping track of the specials isnt nearly as bad as it sounds (coming from a warlord perspective) after a few games and reading them a few times you can get a general grasp on them all, personally i dont see anything in this game getting nearly bogged down as battletech, as much as i loved it i cant even stand to play BT anymore too much stuff to deal with, and personally i feel cav2 runs better than cav1, this may of course be due to the fact that i learned warlord before cav1.

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Plus its no worse then figuring out how many of my LRM's hit after firing while moving with a plus one gunnery at a target that moved 6 hexs behind light cover with smoke on the field.

 

Mad Pat

Actually, that was my point...

 

That being that with all the additional Instants and SAs and stuff, it is going to take longer to play the game.

 

It will start taking Battletech type of time to play, which is one of things that I was trying to get away from when coming over to CAV.

 

 

Erion, most of the items you mentioned fall under game mechanics to me and that is not what I am talking about.

 

I am talking about the 500 different SAs, Instants, upgrades, discipline rolls, etc...

 

It doesnt matter that I only have to make one roll instead of 2-3 rolls, because instead of the time being spent rolling against each other, now you spend that time and then some trying to figure out who has what modifiers, and then who are they standing next to to get other modifiers, and are any of those modifiers negated by SA or upgrade modifiers, and the list goes on and on.

 

Believe me, I am not trying to bash the game here. I am definitely looking forward to playtesting this game.

 

Treat it as though I am playing devil's advocate here....

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while there are alot of abilties and instants youll usually only have a couple of instants that actually get used in one battle depending on the infantry taken and keeping track of the specials isnt nearly as bad as it sounds

Unfortunately, I would disagree with you there.

 

Like Targeting computers in Battletech, anything that gives you that one point better die roll can make a huge difference in the game and therefore people will usually try to take as much advantage of them as possible.

 

Granted they might all get used in the game, or at least not at the same time, but I would imagine that plenty of people will try their best to pair up their forces with the best tandem of instances and SAs that they can.

 

It might not get as dramatic as what I listed above with every roll, but throw even 2 platoons for each side on the field and you have the potential to have a whole bunch of possible mixes out there.

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I think that once you actually get to play a game you'll find out just how the extra SA's and such do not affect the play of the game.

 

The first alpha game took some time to play but thats because we were teaching as we were going, by the end it was playing just as fast if not faster then a normal CAV game with no real issues popping up from SA's and instants.

 

Mad Pat

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I just don't see it. A large chunk of the Special Abilities and Upgrades represent either stuff that made the CAV 1 data cards larger or were part of the vehicle Construction/Upgrade system. The fact that there are additional modifiers to the greatly simplified combat rolls really doesn't add up to much when you compare the direct fire Attack sequences from CAV 1 vs. CAV 2

 

CAV 1

-----------------

1) Check for Available Power

2) Declare Targets for each Attack.

a) Determine which of multiple Targets will receive the bonus from Target Lock, if any

3) Roll opposed dice for Target Lock. Add Modifers to Attacker's Roll for Range, having remained Stationary, WSO Skill, ECCM and Model's TL Modifier. Add modifiers to Defender's roll for Model's ECM and Pilot Skill.

4) Roll opposed dice First Weapon's Attack. Add Modifiers to Attacker's roll for Range, Weapon Damage, and Target Lock (If it was Achieved). Add Modifiers to defender's roll for armor, Pilot skill, Hull down, and cover.

5) Consult Damage Table. Even with a hit, there's the potential that no damage is done.

6) Repeat steps 4 and 5 for each weapon being fired, up to four per model.

 

 

CAV 2

---------------

1) Declare Targets for Each Attack

2) Defender Declares his DV(s) for the turn.

3) Roll 1st attack die. Apply modifiers for Range, Terrain, situational Modifiers, Special Abilities, Upgrades, and the Attacker's current RAV.

4) Compare Attack Roll to Target DV, If the attack roll is higher score a single point of damage against the target model.

5) Repeat steps 3 and 4 for each weapon being fired.

 

My Point being that CAV 2's core mechanic is going to be less complicated and faster because of four things:

 

1) You don't have to worry about power

2) A single die being rolled for each attack.

3) All modifiers apply to the die being rolled. The target number, once declared, remains constant.

4) No damage table to consult.

 

Sure, the instants add other stuff to do, but none of them is any worse than an equivalent attack or effect in CAV 1. Besides which, some of the engineer instants will allow for fun modeling opportunities.

 

This is not to say I don't understand your concern, because I do. I initially balked at the very long list of things at the end of the rules as well, but as I read through the rules again (and again) and become more familiar with the data cards it's very much evident that they are mostly just another way of doing something that CAV 1 already does, but in a more consistently worded and presented manner.

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well, this is one of the reasons I started this thread separate to the other one I started (the breakdown thread). To play devils advocate and see how people respond.

 

Let's hear some more responses (for and against)...

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Ok, I don't have the beta... but I've been keeping an eye on what youse guys have been discussing. An interesting thing about my self is I think in circles (which explains why I'm dizzy). It usually takes acouple times to get my ideals or thoughts coherent enough to be understood. So bare this in mind when I start ranting.

 

When I started playing CAV 1 I thought it very simular to Mechwarrior Dark Age. I like the game. Excuse my blaspemy but I even liked the redesigned mechs and new fluff. It was never an issue with the game that drove me away it was the players. But enough about that...

 

Now whole RAGE system seems even more simular to the Wizkids clicky game system. Once again I'm not saying this is bad. And from what I've read (from the board) there seems to be several key differences.

 

1. Range... did I understand that right that CAV 2.0 has Unlimit range (kept in check by penalties of course). I'm not sure about this... it scares me. "what do you mean yer shooting at me? I'm not even in the same room!" I see terrain becoming increasingly more and more important.

 

2. Intiative/turns and force composition... I combine these three concepts because in MWDA it was all worked together. IMHO this was MWDA major flaw. I won't get into details. CAV 1.0 is alot better on this subject, all units have to preform some action even if it is just sit and wait... unlike in MWDA. From what I've seen from Warlord, in CAV 2.0 turns sequences remain the same (if a bit condensed) but still better then the single action in MWDA.

 

3. Force composition (part II) Both in CAV 1.0 and MWDA, unit choose was controled only by point cost. If I wanted to run a CAV/mech (or tank, gunship, whatever) only section/army I could. Now from what I've read I'll to have X amount of A models to get my B models and so on and so forth.

 

 

Ok, I'm done ranting at least over here. And the only thing I have left to say is I want heavy infantry with jet pack :devil:

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. Range... did I understand that right that CAV 2.0 has Unlimited range (kept in check by penalties of course).

 

Yep, pretty much, but here is the thing. once you start adding up the -2 RAV modifiers You really are still limited to the game board.

 

simplistically speaking you have a attack value of 5 with in your 30 range you need to roll a 5 or better to beat the DV on a unit with a DV of 10, at 31-60 you need a 8 or better, and at 61-90 you have to roll a perfect 10. Thats not taking into effect any other modifier.

 

so no worries, as long as your out of the room they can't shoot you *grin*

 

Mad Pat

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FYI: Several Reponses on One

 

That being that with all the additional Instants and SAs and stuff, it is going to take longer to play the game.

 

I looks as if play will take less time (I'll know after we play this eveing). but teaching will take more. The extra abilities and such will add to the learning curve, but once you know them, the game will go faster. I have already memorized the special rules for my typical section (2 Scorpions, 1 Dictator, 1 Starhawk).

 

Of course, I am still trying to reconcile "much faster" over Cav, as it was already the fastest by far game I had played. :;):

 

 

Like Targeting computers in Battletech, anything that gives you that one point better die roll can make a huge difference in the game and therefore people will usually try to take as much advantage of them as possible.

 

Yes, they will. That's part of playing the game. I know people are going to go through the faction special abilities and decide whether they are worth using instead of their favorite unit combination, too. That is what is called strategy in my book - how can I maximize my force before the game starts.

 

I like the instants, etc. I think they add some neat additional flavor to the rules. I know that when I get to Dallas, for instance, and play MadPat again, I am going to suffer from them, because he knows the rules better than me, but that happen at reapercon anyway without them. As long as everyone remembers the point is to have fun, it will be fine. And the win at all costs types are easy to handle - don't play with them. And I'll stop now 'cause this is turning into a sportsmanship rant...

 

1. Range... did I understand that right that CAV 2.0 has Unlimit range (kept in check by penalties of course). I'm not sure about this... it scares me. "what do you mean yer shooting at me? I'm not even in the same room!" I see terrain becoming increasingly more and more important.

 

The increasing penalties will make it impossible to hit another room unless you have a really small house. :lol:

 

Terrain is going to be very important though. But I have to sections, excuse me, Platoons, of scorpions to hide behind every little bump on the table. Definately going to be worth investing in a platoon of spiders too. I love the little creepy-crawlies.

 

2. Intiative/turns and force composition... I combine these three concepts because in MWDA it was all worked together. IMHO this was MWDA major flaw. I won't get into details. CAV 1.0 is alot better on this subject, all units have to preform some action even if it is just sit and wait... unlike in MWDA. From what I've seen from Warlord, in CAV 2.0 turns sequences remain the same (if a bit condensed) but still better then the single action in MWDA.

 

Pretty much the same. The card initiative has always been a main part of CAV, and I like it. The warlord style actions are, IMO, easier to deal with on a regular basis. We used to always have problems in CAV1.0 remebering how much of a move we had left after firing (we did a lot of the run out from the hill, fire half way thruogh the move and end up behind a hill again).

 

3. Force composition (part II) Both in CAV 1.0 and MWDA, unit choose was controled only by point cost. If I wanted to run a CAV/mech (or tank, gunship, whatever) only section/army I could. Now from what I've read I'll to have X amount of A models to get my B models and so on and so forth.

 

ONe of my players gave me a frantic phone call late last night when they got to the new organizaton section.

 

It is, to me, the biggest change in the rules. But, once I calmed down from the shock of reading it and thought a little, it made more sense. It is going to make CAV 2.0 much more "wargamey". And there will still be point controls, keeping you from takeing nothing but the best units. I am guessing, that the force compostion rules, with the faction rules, are going to make every army seem like a army, rather than a collection of stuff bought to look cool (My Cav collection scheme).

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In build 2 the Specialist Platoon will be moved to Primary and we'll test it that way (nothing else changes, still only one of them). That should allow you to continue to field your one super-section of "whatever" and allow for an all Gunship force in smaller point games (4 gunships in specialist as Primary, 2 more gunships in Secondary).

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. Range... did I understand that right that CAV 2.0 has Unlimited range (kept in check by penalties of course).

 

Yep, pretty much, but here is the thing. once you start adding up the -2 RAV modifiers You really are still limited to the game board.

 

simplistically speaking you have a attack value of 5 with in your 30 range you need to roll a 5 or better to beat the DV on a unit with a DV of 10, at 31-60 you need a 8 or better, and at 61-90 you have to roll a perfect 10. Thats not taking into effect any other modifier.

 

so no worries, as long as your out of the room they can't shoot you *grin*

 

Mad Pat

Though using the non-combat action Scan can make your base range increment pretty freaking long, allowing that "perfect 10" to much greater distances.

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