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Proving grounds: the few, the proud


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Cheap and easy way?   I don't know how you come up with cheap.  Taking a ACE/ACE crew will usualy double the cost of the unit.  Double!!! That isn't cheap.    


You know as your post shows Blacklightning2 some people will not be happy untill ACE units are elminated all togher.  Which is one of the reasons I didn't think crew points should have been changed to begain with.  Because some are going to complain about the crews period.


You use BT as a example.  Well you couldn't use customs in the BT tournies.  So that really isnt a good example.   And yea a lot of people complained about the differant level of stuff.  Or did a lot of people.   Strange that people act like the customs and the like were such a bad thing.  Yet Max Tech was one of BT's best sellers.


The fact is I have no problem with optional rules as long as they stay that.   Core rules should only be added when there is a real problems and Crews are not a real problem.    


Frankly although this rule is ok for some senerio's.  I think it is silly to put in this type of rule for a game.    


Ace crews are not the problem most people have.  The problem most have is from incorect army selection.

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My personal feeling is always that ACE/ACE crews are not cheap by any means,

Cheap meaning it doesn't cost the Munchkin anything out of pocket.



A player need only buy a Rhino...  And, with the addition of two Ace crew members, he's improved it's offensive and defensive capabilities by at least 50%.

There's no kitbashing, no needing to buy extra bitz, no needing to completely redo the datacard...


It's cheap because there's absolutely no cost or investment involved with the improved numbers.


I'm not saying Aces need to be removed from the game.

I am saying that they need to be rare and special.  As Aces are rare and special in the battlefields of today and history.


Riddle me this, Batman:

How many Manfred von Richthofens where there in WW1?

There wasn't a whole freaking army of him, that I assure you.


Or General Lee or General Stonewall Jackson from the Civil War, or Patton from WW2?  How many of then where there?

These are all examples of Aces in our recent history.  Soldiers so dang good that they are too precious to deploy to just any battle or engagement.


By using The Few The Proud, you'll still get your Aces...  But in large scale history deciding battles (like in the 5 digit point cost range)...  As it was meant to be.


I think it's eligant and adds another layer to a players army building.


And, for those of you who say that it's just army composition.


I've both played with and against UberRhinos and completely tricked, munchkined out armies.  I know what they do and I know what they're capable of.

Don't you dare tell me that I lose to these things because I don't know how to build or play an army.

I also know that they are indeed capable of delivering a negative play experience to anyone on the receiving end of them.

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I think this is all a VERY bad Idea... As the rules stood in the first version ofthe game the crew upgrades were "broken" ie, Ability vs cost, with the new upgrade costs in ther JOR, I think it's very well balanced, I think the Point costs are enough of a limit, we don't need to introduce a rigid structure for crew upgrades, If this rule gets intruduced I know I won't be doing any more demos, and won't be buying any more product. this little set of rules is just that big of a turnoff.


I certainly hope that this is NOT put into official rules.

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Mike GW is very popular but trust me the lists do not do a #### thing to limit the munchkins. They have their own problems regarding game balance and the codex of the month disease.  They are popular because they are the best marketed games out there, period. You invest in that much marketing, you will see a return. They are not the best, mechanically that is... but they are fun. Though the lists have nothing to do with it. Oif some of the Chaos Combos are just insane. Yes they would make and do make the AA Rhino look like a walk in the park. Oif and they do not cost half as much as they should!


I will say it again... you plug a hole, a truly commited munchkin will find a new way to exploit whatever you think you plugged.


Now to realism, yeah what you said about the Gulf War is real, and all that... unless I am play testing for anybody, leave reality at the door. I mean when I am doing a demo for 12 years, yesterday for instance... I really do not need to add "realism" to the game, as it were. Games are all about a suspention of belief. We can even start with the fact that Mecha I do not foresee being developed any time soon, especially the size of a Rhino or an Atlas, skylining would be quite the problem, as you should remember from the gulf.


Oh and those Munchkins in Tech... I used to run events, I used to have to face them... and I found that there are two ways to deal with them... let them ruin your day, as this guy just did, or local limits put by local players. Social pressure is a wonderful thing, by the way.


Here is what I used to do...


You want to play, sure, lets agree. If they went through the custom brick of cheese Mech... I brought my own and beat them. Oif I have some in HM Pro that would make the most cheeee loving person have lactose intolerance, and for that purpose only. Being a woman it was even more embarrasing to them. If they went L-2 no customs I used to take a L-1 force, aka 3025, and again beat them. Tactics works, try it sometime.


Now my particular group of friends used an even more effective tool... they did not like the munchkins so as a group we did not play with them.  They were lonely and they tended to play with each other, but it is never as much fun to play another munchkin, since they also tend to be rules lawyers.


I recomend that everybody takes a step back, and read Steve Jackson Games "Munchkin Guide To Power Gaming." If nothing else you will learn more than you even wanted about dice rolling techniques, how to tweak characters and how to out rule the referee. Oh and it is funny to boot!


Oh and what Roadkill said he would do, well Mike I have heard this rumbling from others... and if this becomes a scenario rule then I will be able to live with and maybe Roadkill, since I will not use it... it sounds to me that it will not be used by at least two more people that have chimed in. It is a bad idea, mostly. If it becomes a core rule... then I wonder if loosing the players that this will inherently scare away will be a good thing for the game. I highly recomend that if this is even put on the table.., though truly belongs in the realm of house rules not even printed Scenario rules, it is done at that level... for the good of the game.  I was in the middle of posting and it seems so were others.


Oh and the negative play experience... you are right Mike. I had such a bad flavor in my mouth after playing a local Eldar player in a Rogue Trader Tournament last year... yes he used every killer combo in the Eldar list, some of them quite broken... oh and was such a rules lawyer to boot, that I simply will not play him. If I ever came to another RT and he was my oponent, I will concede the game, without even putting my models on the table. That does not mean I do not play 40K since I do... nice distraction mostly.


That said here is what GW does at tourneys. Not only do they provide scenarios, and I mean full blind scenarios... which is a great idea. They also judge the armies on balance... "fluff", painting and the players on Sportsmanship and good behavior. I scored near the top in painting abilty, pat on my back.. and in the top third as far as sportmanship... I was not there to win by the way and I actually took a bye so others could play. This guy scored near the bottom on both sportsmanship and army composition. I just mention this as an FYI, and how social groups deal with this. The guy that showed up at your gaming day is quite honestly the kind that would score low on both of those categories. Heck, GW has structured their point spread in such a way that you can win every game... (aka the killer combos from ####) and still loose the tournament. So there are other ways to deal with this, which is a real problem, but in all games.



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I have to say I really like this rule, actually the 3 to 1 ratio worked great.


We've been finishing up the soccer rules, and played one game where the other team went for cheap cav's with super pilot and gunners, the other team went for mid size cav's no upgrades...


the game went to the upgrades.


I like the rule and I agree it should be made a standard rule that can be quite easily suspended for the benefit of scenario or specific games.


Mad Pat

AO 00092

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I think, for the sake of argument and also sticking to CAV's 'simple but effective' ideals, we should leave this as a Scenario Rule.


I will be making it a default rule in events I run, just like I do with Hybrid Flight and Full Speed.


But that freedom is there, and while I personally think this is a great rule, I'd not like to strip that freedom away.


Leave it as it is, aside from making it 3:1 at all levels (may try a 2:1 for vets, not sure).

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The more I read of this the more I HATE this idea.

at best this should be considered an optional rule, or a guide to organize your sections.. I Strongly dis-agree with ANY rule that FORCES me to jump through hoops just so I can field what I want.  


And if this is made official by the time Origin Rolls around I'll just jump back on the Rogue Trader bandwagon... I liked this game because it was simple and FUN, it's these litte tweaks here and there that killed Battletech for me. I would hate to see that same thing happen to CAV... I can almost see a Dictator with a clicky base, LOL


If I wanted tedious little details I would play Star Fleet Battles or Napoleonic Wars...


I'll stop now before I crank too many ppl up  


This is a VERY BAD IDEA!!


edit:mental note; spelling stinks when angry

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Hmm, who is really pulling for this? I see a handful of ppl really up for it and a whole lot more either saying NO or just make it an optional rule...  I would have to say this issue needs to die on the table..



 OOO! I just made instigator  :D

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I think that there is enough outcry over the problem of Ace crews that something like this is needed, and for me, who rarely upgrades past veteran anyway, this won't affect me.  thus, I don't mind it being in place as a scenario rule.  However, if it is instigated, let's keep it out of Official/Cumpulsory Rule status, because we've also got a lot of people violently opposed to it.  This is the best compromise I can find.
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So what if the ACE crew gives you 50% more firepower. It cost twice as much as the unit.   For the same cost of the Uber Rhino I can get 2 count them 2  Rhinos and get a 100% upgrade in fire power.

Uh NO.


Here's how it works.  Not only do I double my chances of defeating your TLs (+6 ECM instead of +3 (That is, of crouse, with a stock ECM System)), I also have increased my ability to resist damage (+7 ARM (+8 if you count the armor upgrade) as opposed to +4).


Your example doesn't wash because I've essentially doubled my defensive numbers.  (And, don't tell me Mortars are the answer, because, I still got the +6 ECM, you'll be drifiting from here to kingdom come (unless of course, you fight fire with fire and put in Ace WSOs in your Mortar teams, even then, it's a push where you'll still have to beat my +4- +5 ARM)).


But, that's OK, guys.  If you all don't think it's a problem, then, it's not a problem.

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Hmm, who is really pulling for this? I see a handful of ppl really up for it and a whole lot more either saying NO or just make it an optional rule...  I would have to say this issue needs to die on the table..



 OOO! I just made instigator  :D

Well the compromise where it becomes part of the scenario rules, aka another level of play, is fine. That way those who want it can have it.. and those of us who think it is a bad idea, can essentially ignore it...


Oh and congrats on making instigator.



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Mike,  I am sorry you are making me laugh.  You do not think 2 rhino's gives me 100% more fire power over one Regular Rhino?  If you think that you are out there sorry but you are.  


I am very aware of how effective a UberRhino is.   But it cost as much as Two Rhino's.   i don't know why you can't see that I would take two Rhinos over one uber Rhino every single time.  I would also take 4 Dictators over one UberRhino.  Or alot of other combinations.   Nobody is claiming that ACE units are not hard to kill.    But we are claiming they are not overbalanced.  


Frankly this whole situation is beyond me.   I recall a bunch of people saying fix the points it will be fine then.   But that seems to not be the case.   What this is a matter of two things some people don't like ACE units they want them removed were others can't use them.    And two some people don't want to take the time to think when they build there army.    


Guess what if you don't try to build a army that will beat any other army someone field's you should lose.    When you build your army you should take into consideration what how you are going to deal with a UberRhino if one shows up.  But instead of taking all these things into consideration for months all I have herd is ACE crews are not fair.   Guess what they are deal with it.


That said if people want to use this rule let them as a optional rule.   I am all for optional rules.  There is nothing wrong with them as long as they stay that way.     I will even say this if I was playing a Senerio were neither side was supose to have ACE crews I wouldnt alow them.  But that is a special case.   Then again that same Senerio might require you to use certain forces and not alow you to use other.  That is what senerio's are for.  


What I and others want is scenerio or campaign rules to stay just that.   We want to make sure that they don't become part of the core rules.

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You bet your butt I'd take one Ace/Ace Rhino over two Reg/Regs.  Give it the ARM upgrade and everything just bounces right off of you.  That +8 Armor is almost invincible.


And two some people don't want to take the time to think when they build there army
Anyone can beat an Ace army, just bring all aces yourself.  Of course once you've all got Aces, what's the point of using Aces?  You may as well all have Regular crews.  And don't give me any of that IFM or mortar fire BS, because you're not getting a TL without Elite+ crew or hot dice.


I don't think there's anything at all wrong with TFTP, it should have been in the rules from the start.  But since it isn't, I'll put my support behind it as a scenario rule, so that those who don't like it, don't have to use it.  But don't be surprised if you see it become official for tournaments.


And Roadkill, you can yell all you want to about quiting if they add this rule.  I know a guy who threatened a similar thing a while ago.  He sent Ed an email claiming that he and his friends had bought several hundred dollars worth of CAV product and that he wasn't going to play the game anymore b/c of a personal problem that he had with some CAV players from this forum.  Ed's direct quote to him (I was cc'ed on the email) was "send me your stuff and I'll refund your money".  


So if you don't like something, come up with some constructive criticism or some logical points against it, but don't threaten to pack up your toys and go home.  It's pathetic.  Especially coming from an AO. icon13.gif

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