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Proving grounds: the few, the proud


Akela
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Loud whistle!

 

Well it wasn't in the core rules, so this is what I have to say, big raspberry!

 

That said... to all who are now getting into the mudslinging range, STOP!

 

That is all I have to say... personal attacks do not become anyone!

 

Now to adress your points though. If you want to make them part of a national tournament standard, they do fit the needs of one type of tournament. I can say, with no fear, that CAV could support several types of tournaments... unlkke the Rogue Trader which tries to make one size fits all...

 

This does not mean that all types of tourneys will HAVE to follow these rules. They are but scenario rules... just like I used to run a very legal Blood name on 3D terrain, I intend to run my tourneys not using this. I have not been shown or seen a dramatic need for this... so I recomend discretion on this matter.

 

Nadin

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Hmm, who is really pulling for this? I see a handful of ppl really up for it and a whole lot more either saying NO or just make it an optional rule

I might want to point out that those of us who are pulling for the rule haven't been the ones making the vocal complaints about the cheese Rhinos.

There are a /lot/ of people out there that don't like getting the "Rhino Luvin'."  Just about all of my play group refuses to even consider crew upgrades.

 

Thus far, I can recall about five seperate instances where someone has openly complained about how bad Uber-Rhinos can be.

About how much of a negative play experience these things are.

 

I think this rule makes sense...  Both from a military, real world, stand point and from a game balance stand point.

This rule encourages more intuitive thought in army creation from the onset.  It also developes a very elegant rank structure that emulates military forces that we see nowadays.

 

Nobody says you can't play with aces.  Heck, it tells us in the rules how to set up terrain...  How many times has anyone actually /done/ that in a friendly pick-up game?

I mean, gosh, I'm hearing now how infrequently Close Assault is even used.

 

Myself, I would like a hard and fast rule so that I have something to go by.

Yes, Nadin, I love how limiting GW Army lists are.  I love how it forces me to think in advance what I want to put on the table.  It allows me to become more attached to the army, and, as a result, I play a much better game with that army.

Any good General will tell you, "The battle is won before it even begins."

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By that same standard Mike, the battle is won before it beginis, then if I really want to hold that piece of ground, why not put out all my aces in one hole?

 

Look mike I know about reality, I also kow that from fluff I can place an order for a crew to General Drake or any other that supplies the market and get that crew, regardless of quality. There are other ways  of dealign with it and army lists are not as perfect a solution as you make it sound... I also know that munchkins will not be stopped by an army list... they will only have to work harder for their cheese.

 

Locally I do not have this problem.. at all... oh and we rarely upgrade anything, so that rule would affect us how? But I am thinking of how this will affect players and how this will turn them off... and some, you cannot help it, will.

 

I also know that the way I and my friend play is everything but competitive. We just put models on table, and choose forces. After we are done choosing forces, we find datacards... and very rarely upgrade them... then just play.

 

Now that is NOT the way point games are suposed to be played... but since you are throwing the military realism coin here, this is "quite realistic" since another truism of the military is "military intelligence, quite the oxymoron." So using the realism coin, in a game will not work, at least with me. Now I win somegames, I loose some... but we have quite the blast.

 

I understand what you are trying to prevent, the invasion of the munchkins. Well they are a reality of gaming... and they will find the holes and exploit them. Now if you are going to come up with a list... tell me, what are the most common CAVs in oh a Templar list? I mean if we are going to go that way, lets go all the way... and come up with a full Templar list, a full Mercenary list (first problem, if you are sponsored by Terrans, Grundor House will not sell) a full UCOR list... and so it goes.

 

Now your players who have a problem with Rhino loving... fine limit them locally... but don't try that nationally, please.

 

I also thought that making this part of the optional set of scenario rules would take care of the problem. Essencially you get what you want, and we get what we want. I know I won't use it, but I am sure you will... so that way you and I get what we want.

 

This is called compromise, and this is the best we can do. Oh and we will not agree that army lists are a solution here.

 

Nadin

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So if you don't like something, come up with some constructive criticism or some logical points against it, but don't threaten to pack up your toys and go home.  It's pathetic.  Especially coming from an AO. icon13.gif

 

That was uncalled for, and it's not a threat I feel that this little rule is just that big of a turnoff, If it's made official CAV will really lose it's appeal, I like the freeform way you go about putting a force together.. I mean even with the few the proud, I can just buy crew upgrades on lesser CAVS, to meet the Requirements to be able to field the Maxxed out Super heavies, while I may not be able to field as many outright, I'll still be able to shave the points and get the bang i want..  and I certainly don't want to see cav Turn into another game (warhammer 40k) where you have to sink $500 into your force before you can EVER even take the field with it, that was one of the MAJOR turn ons, when I fist started I bought 3 CAVS and was able to COMPETE!! Does that make any sense to you, or do you think this is pathetic too?

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Roadkill try to compromise here... and if it becomes a scenario rule you can do with it the same thing I will do with it... ignore it.

 

Heck I do not think we have "graduated" to any of the special rules yet, though might try them next week. When you teach the game you keep very simple and taeching the game with this as a core rule will ahem complicate matters quite a bit.

 

Nadin

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Roadkill try to compromise here... and if it becomes a scenario rule you can do with it the same thing I will do with it... ignore it.

 

Heck I do not think we have "graduated" to any of the special rules yet, though might try them next week. When you teach the game you keep very simple and taeching the game with this as a core rule will ahem complicate matters quite a bit.

 

Nadin

If it goes as just being a scenario rule and not a core rule, I can live with it. I won't like it, and I certainly wont use it but I can live with it.. *rolls eyes*

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Personally, I think the 3:1 ratio for crew upgrades (starting with regular to veteran) would be a great addition to the core rules.  Either that, or adjust the point cost for them upward. . . again.

 

I would just as strongly oppose any kind of ratio system for unit selection.  While I like to play combined arms forces, I would certainly not enjoy playing a mostly infantry game.

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Out of curiosity, has anyone actually done a comparison of two stock vs 1 upgraded Rhino?  As in, looking at the stats in a straight fight.

 

Now, I'm not real up on the CAV rules, but statistically speaking, two pairs of rolls shouldn't be that hard to model.  For example, the stock Rhino will achieve TL 21% of the time, the Ace will achieve it 72%.  The damage chart should be doable, if there are enough duplicates to allow the TL bonus 21/72 % of the time.

 

All of this assumes no modifiers, of course.

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I am still all for the 3:1 ratio.  I feel that it makes people think about tactics more, rather than buying all Ace/Ace crews and just walking forward, kind of a boring game that way.  Not to mention very uncreative.  

 

This being instituted into the core rules wouldnt bother me one bit, after all you could elect not to use it in your campaign or league anyway.  However I do see where it would make more sense adding it as a scenario rule as there will always be players that complain about those types of things.

 

Mike (Roadkill), quit yer bellyaching you big baby!!  ( I am allowed to be mean he has been one of my best friends for about 10 years now!!   :p )

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Ulyss, I agree.... but I guess this is a subject close to ppl's hearts (as you'll see on the 9th) and so a little 'friction' is o be expected.

 

However, it is times like this that I'm reminded of the saying "you can only please some of the people all of the time, but not all the people all of the time" or something like that.

 

I think making this a scenario rule will allow people to use it and people to not. I personally like it, and I'll be using it (do anyway now) but it won't be every game. There are times when I'll want to use ace crews, so I will. It's individual styles.

 

Abngi, I have done that fight, with a normal amount of terrain (for my group, which is probably a little heavy for some) on a 4x4 table (only CAV game I've ever done that with). And it is usually close, but not quite equal. And regards to Chrome's supposition that in all ace games may as well be regular, aces still don't take as much damage and don't take it as often so it makes the game longer, and less bloody. I prefer the all regular game personally :o)

 

Ulyss.... prepare for Ogre Time... you have been warned :o)

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