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Balance of power destroyed


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I was under the impression that many of the new rule changes and post cost changes were to try to balance the game and factions.

However now I am confused.

As I understand it we may be getting a faction book every month or two making it year before some are out. I can think of no way reaper could possibly unbalance things and make for an unfair game than to give certian factaions unbelieveable advantages like releaseing some faction books 6 months to a year before the others. If they want balance the necro book should have been held til the others were ready.

Can someone tell me how giving necro the only calvery avaible, 2x as many figures, subsets, and 2x as many spells; creates a balanced fair game?

 

Is there any way to get a ruling that holds all faction book items and abilities until all the books are out. If not basically what they have done is completely break all the game mechanics until the rest of the books are out. I don't want to wait a year for all the books for the game to actually become fair playable again.

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No offence, but I think your out to lunch on this.

 

How do you propose that Reaper go about launching their supplements?

 

My understanding (although I have not seen the Necropolis book) is that Reaper is going to strive to keep the army lists in the main rulebook viable. So simply by releasing more models and a few new spells and special abilities I don't see how they will become unbalanced so long as they are accurately pointed.

 

No doubt the forces comprised from the new Necropolis book will rule the battle field for a few weeks until people sort out how to deal with them, but looking at the statistic blocks for all of the new Necropolis units I have yet to see anything out of line.

 

The notion that Reaper should hold all supplements and bring them out all at once is ludacris from a business perspective, and yes, i'm sorry to say, Reaper is in business, and the ultimate goal is profits. That aside, Reaper is bar none the best company i've ever seen when it comes to customer service, and taking into account fan input.

 

Reaper would have to not release any new Warlord models for the next year+ while it playtested everything. Not only would they have to go for a year plus with very little new income being generated from the Warlord system, releasing everything at once just isn't smart. People use disposable income to buy gaming stuff, if everything got released all at once, tsales would be far worse than if things were released slowly over time. You're much more likely to sell players on multiple armies if they don't have to invest in everything all at once.

 

Just my opinion, but so long as Reaper keeps their points system valid, and makes sure everything is well playtested and pointed I have no problems.

 

Don't like that your army isn't being released for two years, and you can't stand that everyone else has new stuff and you don't. My advice is not to play until your army comes out if it bothers you that much, I know I'll be playing and having fun in the meantime.

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Having a faction book only becomes an "unbeatable advantage" if the book contains units/combos/whatevers that make the faction unbeatable.

 

Having read the book, and having played test games with all the new models included, that is not the case. The key is to look at theeffectiveness of the faction relative to a core rulebook force. For example, I cannot use flyers in my standard force; do I automatically lose to a faction that has flyers as grunts? My archers have RAV 1 and 24" range; do I automatically lose to Elves? I have no Mage Warlord; do Darkspawn automatically fry me?

 

The answer to the above is "no". If the new units and rules were unbalanced, that answer would be "yes". The sole advantage gained so far, in my opinion, is that the Necropolis players can now build more distinct styles of forces - less cookie cutter effect, and more ability to form a force that your particular play style can take full advantage of.

 

Play a few games with them, play a few games against them, then let us know your opinion. Reaper has earned my trust so far, and based on my review of Necropolis Thule I am willing to assume they will continue to produce balanced gameplay until I see something that is unbalanced.

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I would argue that the new troop types would actually "dillute" the power of the necropolic forces for a while, during the time people get the new units and try them out - seeing what works and what doesn't work.

 

Right down the lane are the other faction books as well - which will add new units to the other factions, and honestly Reaper does a great job of balancing everything and making adjustments if anything is broken - so while there are more options - the points will balance everything out and it will still rely on good tactics.

 

So having to face 200 points of skeletal warriors or 200 points of calvary - it's still 200 points that you'll have to deal with - the only difference is how. You may find it's easier to deal with a few calvary than hoards of warriors swamping your troops.

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So having to face 200 points of skeletal warriors or 200 points of calvary - it's still 200 points that you'll have to deal with - the only difference is how.

This difference can easily cause some people to think the new Necro book unbalances things. If you regularly beat your Necro opponents, then suddenly they use the book and they start whupping you, it is not necessarily that they are unbalanced. They just have a different bag of tricks, and you need to fight them differently. Necro can now be played as something other than a hoard of cheap grunts. It will take time for people to relearn how to fight them. ^_^

 

Besides, Necro still has no clerics, and their only flyers are still the *rolls eyes* crypt bats *makes gagging face*. ::P:

 

That being said, I do share one of mchish2's concerns. It has to do with the sub army lists. I've been a necro player since day 1. I took precious few vampires (don't really like vamps). I lost a lot. Now with the new army book, all I had to do was take Gauntfield out of my army, and suddenly I have all these new faction special abilities (for my Crypt Legion army). I didn't have to give anything up. My army list is either identical, or just 1 figure different than always (depending on if I was using Gauntfield). But suddenly I get all these free, very powerful, abilities. I have won every game since the new book came out, and I have to credit Dark Energy for much of that.

 

What I have done with some of the people i play with is to just agree not to use my new special abilities until their faction books come out. I still use my expanded army & spell lists, just not the Crypt Legion SAs.

 

Anyone have any thoughts on that?

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The only real advantage that the Necropolis have with the new stuff in the faction book is cavalry. This is an unfortunate reality that there just is no way around. From a business stand point, it is just unrealistic to expect any company to release all the books at one time, both because of the initial capital outlay and because it causes a game to basically stagnate overnight.

 

Now, I can honestly say that there is nothing in the book which makes the new forces nore powerful when used against the other factions' units from the core book. Even the cavalry are easily stopped if put up against infantry. Cavalry are only a bonus against an archer heavy force, because in the military circle of life, Cavalary counter Archers, Archers counter Infantry, and Infantry counter Cavalry. Since almost all the Necros have Deflect anyway, archery was never very effective against them anyway, so this is not as unbalancing as it may seem.

 

Trust me, Cavalry can be easily defeated with Infantry, if you use them effectively. I can also assure you that pains were taken to test the new units against the current core rulebook units, specifically to minimize the power creep. While they Necro players may have a few new options for a while, the balance of power is still intact.

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I have won every game since the new book came out, and I have to credit Dark Energy for much of that.

 

Were your opponents playing magic shutdown/anti-mage tactics?

 

Edit: For some reason I read "Necromantic Surges" in my head when I read that. So you're winning due to a 10% increase in toughness? Could you describe an example game?

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So having to face 200 points of skeletal warriors or 200 points of calvary - it's still 200 points that you'll have to deal with - the only difference is how.

This difference can easily cause some people to think the new Necro book unbalances things. If you regularly beat your Necro opponents, then suddenly they use the book and they start whupping you, it is not necessarily that they are unbalanced. They just have a different bag of tricks, and you need to fight them differently. Necro can now be played as something other than a hoard of cheap grunts. It will take time for people to relearn how to fight them. ^_^

 

Besides, Necro still has no clerics, and their only flyers are still the *rolls eyes* crypt bats *makes gagging face*. ::P:

 

That being said, I do share one of mchish2's concerns. It has to do with the sub army lists. I've been a necro player since day 1. I took precious few vampires (don't really like vamps). I lost a lot. Now with the new army book, all I had to do was take Gauntfield out of my army, and suddenly I have all these new faction special abilities (for my Crypt Legion army). I didn't have to give anything up. My army list is either identical, or just 1 figure different than always (depending on if I was using Gauntfield). But suddenly I get all these free, very powerful, abilities. I have won every game since the new book came out, and I have to credit Dark Energy for much of that.

 

What I have done with some of the people i play with is to just agree not to use my new special abilities until their faction books come out. I still use my expanded army & spell lists, just not the Crypt Legion SAs.

 

Anyone have any thoughts on that?

Sounds like your opponent needs to re-think his tactics against the Necropolis.

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I have won every game since the new book came out, and I have to credit Dark Energy for much of that.

 

So you're winning due to a 10% increase in toughness? Could you describe an example game?

Most of the games (and we're only talking about 4 or 5 games at this point), had me playing a swarm army (TONS of regular skellies, minimal points outside of swarms of skellies).

 

That '10%' increase also includes the fact coup de grace just drops my toughness from Tough 2 to Tough 1, something my opponent never bothered to do much, since he couldn't kill the model.

 

So I think the key to my victories was in both the sheer number of models I had benefitting from the Dark Energy, plus my opponent not bothering to Coup De Grace, giving me a 30% chance to raise my guys. That allows me to resurrect 15+ models on average per game (40 skellies = 12 recover, + 3-4 of those 12 get recovered a 2nd time, plus 1 of those gets recovered a 3rd time).

 

It's like giving me an extra 15 grunts! ^_^

 

But my main point is this: It cost me absolutely NOTHING to get Dark Energy. My army list has never had vamps or bats, and only occasionally had Gauntfield. When I got to Origins, on Thursday & Friday my army didn't have Dark Energy, and on Saturday & Sunday it did. No drawbacks, no sacrifices, no changes. Just a 100% free special ability that can bring back 10% of my troops, and can't be taken away with bane, coup de grace, etc.

 

But like I said, with my opponents who really feel it is unfair, I'll just play without Dark Energy until their faction book comes out. As long as I'm playing Warlord, I'm having fun. :B):

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I have won every game since the new book came out, and I have to credit Dark Energy for much of that.

 

So you're winning due to a 10% increase in toughness? Could you describe an example game?

Most of the games (and we're only talking about 4 or 5 games at this point), had me playing a swarm army (TONS of regular skellies, minimal points outside of swarms of skellies).

 

That '10%' increase also includes the fact coup de grace just drops my toughness from Tough 2 to Tough 1, something my opponent never bothered to do much, since he couldn't kill the model.

 

So I think the key to my victories was in both the sheer number of models I had benefitting from the Dark Energy, plus my opponent not bothering to Coup De Grace, giving me a 30% chance to raise my guys. That allows me to resurrect 15+ models on average per game (40 skellies = 12 recover, + 3-4 of those 12 get recovered a 2nd time, plus 1 of those gets recovered a 3rd time).

 

It's like giving me an extra 15 grunts! ^_^

 

But my main point is this: It cost me absolutely NOTHING to get Dark Energy. My army list has never had vamps or bats, and only occasionally had Gauntfield. When I got to Origins, on Thursday & Friday my army didn't have Dark Energy, and on Saturday & Sunday it did. No drawbacks, no sacrifices, no changes. Just a 100% free special ability that can bring back 10% of my troops, and can't be taken away with bane, coup de grace, etc.

 

But like I said, with my opponents who really feel it is unfair, I'll just play without Dark Energy until their faction book comes out. As long as I'm playing Warlord, I'm having fun. :B):

I hope you're planning on using Dark Energy in our GenCon game.

 

PS

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What was leading the TONS of Skellies?

2 x Railor & Azarphan, & Kentaur leading 38 skellies. :B):

 

Also tried with 4 x Railor & Azarphan leading 46 skellies.

 

Swarms can be tough to keep spread out enough to avoid fireballs, but like I said, I have a 30% chance to bring em back! :B)::lol:

 

 

Sounds like your opponent needs to re-think his tactics against the Necropolis

I KNEW you were going to say that! :lol:

 

I hope you're planning on using Dark Energy in our GenCon game.

Oh, you'd better believe it! I will definately be bringing the PAIN! :ph34r:

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What was leading the TONS of Skellies?

2 x Railor & Azarphan, & Kentaur leading 38 skellies. :B):

 

Also tried with 4 x Railor & Azarphan leading 46 skellies.

 

Swarms can be tough to keep spread out enough to avoid fireballs, but like I said, I have a 30% chance to bring em back! :B)::lol:

 

Good Selection. Okay so I'm stupid and terrible at Math, where's the 30% coming from?

Also, there's no way to be sure but I think Railor and Kentaur has the Dark Energies points applied to them.

 

Sounds like your opponent needs to re-think his tactics against the Necropolis

I KNEW you were going to say that! :lol:

 

Crap, I've become predictable again!

 

I hope you're planning on using Dark Energy in our GenCon game.

Oh, you'd better believe it! I will definately be bringing the PAIN! :ph34r:

 

Isn't that Darkspawn?

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Okay so I'm stupid and terrible at Math, where's the 30% coming from?

Having watched the sheer number of things going on at once that you keep track of when you're running games for people, I'll have to disagree with you on the idea of you being stupid! ::P:

 

As for the 30%, my skellie grunts have Tough 1. With Dark Energy, they have Tough 2. Therefore, they get get back up on a roll of an 8, 9, or 10. 3 in 10 chance = 30% ::D:

 

Sure my opponent could spend an action coup de gracing them, but they'd still have the Dark Energy Tough 1, which is still a 20% chance of getting back up.

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