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Are we looking at it wrong?


Spartan6
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hey, it pays to play as the hairless monkeys...  :B):

They beat the Rach didn't they? :devil:

In a most convincing fashion... TWICE! :B):

Hmm....Monkeyboys vs. undisciplined rabble, sounds pretty win-win to me. How about best three out of five? :B):

Undisciplined rabble? :blink: The Rach have one of the finest armies in the CAV universe.

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this is a mecha game.....if players want "military realism" they are playing the wrong genre.....

CAV has never been a mecha game, its always been about combined arms. It's marketed as a mecha game b/c people are generally attracted to the giant robots, but Reaper's made it clear from day one that CAVs are not king of the battlefield, they're simply another tool to be used to achieve victory.

 

why are there strike rules at all?
Becuase players asked for them! CAV 1 didn't have anything like this, but house rules for orbital bombardment and such have existed before the majority of the people here ever heard of CAV. If Reaper does anything, they listen to their customers, and their customers wanted artillary strikes, fast-mover support and orbital bombardment! :B):

I was not aware that the players had asked for artillery and orbital bombardment ...so that does answer some of what I was asking....but as for the rest of my question....let me restate it. This game offers really good combined arms rules (not just mecha)....very playable...very cool....but why would anyone ask Reaper to add rules that take the focus away from playing a game with the models (giant robots, tanks and really cool planes) that we have bought, built and painted for the sake of playing... and move that focus to army construction...where purchasing the proper off board assets takes away your opponents ability to play the game.

 

A second question has more to do with time in the game.....Im relatively sure that someone told me that a round in this game is 5 seconds...or something like that.....If that is true....and the average game (2000-3000 pts) lasts less than 10 rounds....you are talking about engagements that last less than a minute .....honestly ...how many times could you really manage to call for fire in that short amount of time...or more like...how often are you going to get the artillery/orbital bombardment onto the location that you need it in that short amount of time. (it takes a while to align satellites, or bring air or artillery assets to bear)

 

Also, as a 20 year vetran of Battletech and a 15 year vet of Warhamster...I have seen systems for off board artillery written into both of these systems at one point or another...and in all of these cases, the rules were removed for exactly the reasons above.....and the fact that powergamers WILL abuse them .

 

Please understand that I am not complaining or whining .....I am very curious to hear thoughtful answers to these concerns.....

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A second question has more to do with time in the game.....Im relatively sure that someone told me that a round in this game is 5 seconds...or something like that.....If that is true....and the average game (2000-3000 pts) lasts less than 10 rounds....you are talking about engagements that last less than a minute .....honestly ...how many times could you really manage to call for fire in that short amount of time...or more like...how often are you going to get the artillery/orbital bombardment onto the location that you need it in that short amount of time. (it takes a while to align satellites, or bring air or artillery assets to bear)

Right click on your map, select the strike from the menu that pops up, click execute. The strike craft are standing by, and hit the afterburner and come on in. Submunition artillery rounds could be loitering ballistically until their targeting is activated, at which time the jet assist kicks in and brings them to battlefield level at supersonic speeds. The orbital lasers are already warmed up, and just need to shift focal points. Plenty of fluff possibilities.

 

However, I don't think there is a need to define how long a round is - my personal preference is to call it "as long as it takes to do what you are doing at the time". Keep the scale flexible and scaling, and you don't have to worry about technical or physics conflicts. Hopefully, the mechanics remain foremost, then the fluffers follow up.

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Hopefully, the mechanics remain foremost, then the fluffers follow up.

"fluffer" :lol::lol:

 

 

I know for a fact that Reaper writes fluff based on mechanics, not mechanics based on fluff. The exact length of a "round" has always been left intentionally vague.

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In response to Mr. Ivarr's statement

 

To be a fully combine arms game, artillery and jet fighter should be included. Unforunately, artillery and jetfighter don't fit well into the whole On-board field. The battlefield is just too small for them to fit realistically. So we have to make them off-board.

 

As reminder to everyone

 

We are trying to figure out how to limit the dectruction capiablity of First strike attacks but not strikes themselves. Outside of a li'l point adjustment I think strikes are fine as is. But I am concern that someone will drop 8 or more strike on an opponent before the can even move out of the deployment zone.

 

as for the current suggestions so far

 

Spartan's idea with a scan to fire/target I don't think it'll impede a player from doing a First strike Nuke. It just adds an extra die roll.

 

Then there is the ones that limit the number of strikes usable during an activiation/turn. These wouldn't be bad if we can find a magic number that'll provide balance and flexablity through out the entire game.

 

Lastly, there is the dreaded "no strikes during first turn". And as far as I can see, as much as I hate to admit it, is the best option so far. As it addresses the problem without hindering the effectiveness of strikes later on.

 

Even more bad suggestions

 

Require LoS and within the first range band to target with Strikes. Once again though this will hinder strikes not only during the first turn but all so through out the entire game.

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Lastly, there is the dreaded "no strikes during first turn". And as far as I can see, as much as I hate to admit it, is the best option so far. As it addresses the problem without hindering the effectiveness of strikes later on

 

Make it a rule with no wiggle room, twist the fluff to fit and call it a compromise.... :B):

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1) For NukeCon, I'm going to allow strikes, with the stipulation that models that have not yet activated for the game can not be targetted. Thus, during the first turn, your yet to be moved models that are sitting in your deployment zone are safe. The ones you've already moved (and had a chance to take a shot with if you so deemed) are legal targets.

 

2) It just dawned on me that as they are written now, Strikes don't neccessarily have to be considered as being called in on the turn that they're hitting. Its entirely possible that all of the strikes were radioed in while your models were moving into their deployment zone. The 30 second window when they all hit during the game is just that; when they arrived. The FIST dude is simply taking a second to hold a laser pointer so that the bombs know where to land.

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2) It just dawned on me that as they are written now, Strikes don't neccessarily have to be considered as being called in on the turn that they're hitting. Its entirely possible that all of the strikes were radioed in while your models were moving into their deployment zone. The 30 second window when they all hit during the game is just that; when they arrived. The FIST dude is simply taking a second to hold a laser pointer so that the bombs know where to land.

 

Huh, that actually makes a lot of sense... Put it in the fluff!

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Smokingwreckage..thats not a bad idea....the guys I play with were discussing something like that...we were thinking more like d6 rounds later the off boards arrive.....this would allow for flight times for strike craft or arty that is farther away...and the random element (d6) would account for repositioning of guns....

 

or in the case of Chromes idea

Its entirely possible that all of the strikes were radioed in while your models were moving into their deployment zone. The 30 second window when they all hit during the game is just that; when they arrived. The FIST dude is simply taking a second to hold a laser pointer so that the bombs know where to land.

 

the random length of time would account for priority list and yet again flight times.....because modern vehicles and mecha are not going to line up on opposite sides of the field and shout at one another or lift their kilts at one another while waiting on offboard assets to arrive ......battles should be more fluid than that....player A is patrolling grid 3354.1776 when they encounter player B....without pause, both sides begin maneuvering for their objectives....

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Moved this from a different thread I posted in last week:

 

 

When the FIST SA is activated, roll 1d6 with a -1 modifier for every 1000 pts (max modifier of -4). This represents the number of turns before the strike actually lands on the table, with any result less than 1 arriving at the end of the current platoon's activation. If during a different turn, the strike arrives at the end of that platoon's activation in the indicated turn. Fluff-wise the requested support asset either has higher priority fire missions, has to fly from another part of the battlespace, reposition itself in orbit, finish it's cigarette, etc etc etc.

 

Here's how it would work after declaring use of the FIST SA

 

1. Player determines type of strike and writes it down, not letting other players see it.

2. Roll for delay (if any)

3. Place target marker on table

4. If the strike is arriving on a later turn use a d6 to indicate how many turns remain (don't forget to update this in the end phase of each turn)

5. Roll for drift, if required, when the strike arrives on-board. If done earlier, the bad guys will just avoid the marker. They probably will anyways, but on that note, you've denied him/her access to that area.

6. Resolve attack as normal.

 

I know it would be a bit of a record keeping nightmare compared to the ease of the rest of the game, but it would lessen the number first turn strikes while still allowing players to take the same amount of strikes as they can now. If the strike arrives after victory conditions are met...well them's the breaks sometimes.

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I don't know. Spending what, 100 points, on an orbital strike and then seeing a '6' turn up on the delay die? There isn't going to be anything under it when it lands. That seems pretty ineffective.

 

To make sure I'm clear on what you are proposing, one round is a complete pass through the initiative deck?

 

Maybe instead of round, it's 1d6 activations (or 1d6 +3 or 2d6 or something). That give the targets an opportunity to move, but not a guarenteed chance. You could also get intot he nice tense situation of 'do I move that platoon that I don't want to move yet so they avoid a strike, or do I move the unit I really want to move and hope that I get the next initiative'.

 

Hob

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Yes ...one round is a complete pass through the initiative deck....and i think subtracting 1 from the d6 for each 1k points after the first makes sense.....the larger the force involved the higher the likelyhood of a task force having priority....and thus higher likelyhood of strikes arriving in a timely fashion.

 

I dont think that even 2d6 activations is enough......as one trip through the initiative deck is likely to be 8 or 10 cards in a 2000+ point game...and I dont like the idea of having people lose units before they even get to use them......i think a modified d6 full turns is a much more realistic and playable idea.

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