Are we looking at it wrong?

[Saint of Sinners]

So far the only problem I can find with my solution was fire directed outside of the deployment zone. This of course, can be prevented by the defender employee a two to three inch buff zone within his deployment zone.

 

 

Ok, so now I'll sit and wait for Spartan to give his opinion (after all it was his and Pat's suggests that lead me to stealth.)

[Erion]

Unless that the rule includes a section noting that the immense amount of ECM generated in that location makes targeting even the ground a difficult task and thus requires a Scan to Target.

I'd be ok with that.

[Stubbdog]

Ok, admittedly I have not been in this thread for a couple weeks, so I just spent the last hour or so trying to catch up with all that has been posted.

 

First things first, this thing has taken so many twists and turns in this thread, someone should probably start a new thread and post up a summation of the different realistic ideas (realistic being ones that at least somewhat fit Pat's requirements).

 

There are roughly 100 posts worth of stuff here and I admit that I have about 15 of them that I want to respond to in some way or another, but then I also realize that only about 3 of them actually related to the actual question at hand.

 

1. SoS, I have disagree with you on one thing. You have stated over and over that you believe this has nothing to do with limiting strikes, only trying to change the first turn. I disagree. A team with 250 points worth of strikes is a team with 250 points worth of strikes. Yes, I agree that it is more relevant related to the first few turns as each side is more crunched up in deployment zones, but that does not necessarily say that is the only time that we should have a problem with someone laying down 8 strikes in a single turn (possibly even single activation).

 

2. The X number of phantom chits... although I do agree with the whole arguement made about fun and some things that are not. I disagree with the idea of the phantom chits mainly because it changes the whole scope of the game. Although from a GM point of view I want to limit the ability to have someone use 8 strikes in an activation, from a player point of view, if I do throw a strike I want it to blow something up, not herd them or bluff them. Besides with 8 strikes, with 3 chits each I could REALLY lay the wool on the table and it would be worse than without them.

 

3. I really don't like the delayed result of a strike. But if that is where this goes, then I want to go ahead and put in my opinion that I don't want to "give it away" to my enemy where that strike is going (see #2). If there were a setup of delayed results, then I would suggest something to the realm of you can either target a point on the ground and hope that there is something there to blow up when the strike arrives, or you can target a particular unit and it will still go after that unit no matter how delayed the strike is or where the unit is at the time. There are still the normal strike rolls so it can be successful or not. In this scenario, I do like the strikes getting their own initiative cards for when they hit (on the next turn - none of this 2-3 turn delay crap). It forces the attacker to guess what the enemy is going to do in terms of "is he going to move this way and be grouped up when my strike hits or is he gonna move that way and be all alone when my strike hits and I should target this other guy instead", instead of forcing the decision on the defense to decide to "call a bluff or not".

 

#4 But even #3 does not keep someone from throwing out 8 strikes in a turn. So, trying my best to stay on that topic, which really has been impossible so far, you cant make them so expensive that they are not worth doing anymore. I do think you could raise the cost a little, but not significantly. Something that has a chance of doing 1 point of damage to a few units is not worth spending 100 points on. Cant do that "buy a level 2 cannon verses a level 3 cannon" idea cause after all you already did that when you chose which FIST unit to buy in the first place.

 

Cant really limit them to 1 or two per activation or turn or whatever as then there is not really a reason to buy 8 guys to have 7 of them stand around and do nothing.

 

But You can tinker with mechanics related to the whole scan deal, LOS deal, has to have a spotter deal, or the like. But whatever the end result it has to work for both 10 inches away as well as 80 inches away.

[Chrome]

1. SoS, I have disagree with you on one thing. You have stated over and over that you believe this has nothing to do with limiting strikes, only trying to change the first turn. I disagree. A team with 250 points worth of strikes is a team with 250 points worth of strikes. Yes, I agree that it is more relevant related to the first few turns as each side is more crunched up in deployment zones, but that does not necessarily say that is the only time that we should have a problem with someone laying down 8 strikes in a single turn (possibly even single activation).

I honestly don't think Strikes are a big deal once you get past the first turn, deployment bunch-up. You know before hand what strikes your opponent has and you know which of his models can call them in. If you don't want to be smacked with an orbital bombardment every turn, then kill his FIST unit w/a couple of IA's. Even if they bring a half dozen FIST teams, they're going to be bunched up themselves due to low mobility, so smoke 'em. Once those FIST units go down, his remaining strikes are just wasted points.

 

Even if he does manage to get all of his strikes off on the first turn or two, so what? Now he's got a bunch of useless models that your guys can ignore until you wipe up the remaining threats.

[Sergeant_Crunch]

The more I look at this and the longer this thread gets, the more I think the answer is not going to be anything like delays, separate initiative cards or the like. Requiring a scan, expansion of the deployment zone (or some other method of reducing the "deployment crunch"), and possibly a modification of point values is probably going to be the only way of reducing first turn carnage without impacting the effectiveness of strikes throughout the full length of the game.

 

Now, this still allows for 10 strafing runs in one activation from that rifle platoon, but on the other hand, that means that the player has spent 250 points for 10 strafing runs and at a minimum 430 points for FIST/1 infantry, so you're looking at 680 points for that 1 shot death from above. Depending on the size of the game that's a fairly sizable investment, that isn't as effective later in the game.

[Ivarr]

680 points is a large percentage, yes, but its only roughly the cost of 2 superiority cavs if you really look at it.....and even with a chance to spread out a bit....10 strikes of nearly any kind are likely to disable/destroy double or triple their points cost if there are CAVs or heavy tanks to be targeted........at least at their current points cost.... and with the ability to drop them into the deployment zone first turn, it actually very easy to do much worse than triple.....

[Spartan6]

I kinda like the deployment zone stealth thing.. I'll have to try it out this weekend.

[Saint of Sinners]

1.  SoS,  I have disagree with you on one thing.  You have stated over and over that you believe this has nothing to do with limiting strikes, only trying to change the first turn.  I disagree.  A team with 250 points worth of strikes is a team with 250 points worth of strikes.  Yes, I agree that it is more relevant related to the first few turns as each side is more crunched up in deployment zones, but that does not necessarily say that is the only time that we should have a problem with someone laying down 8 strikes in a single turn (possibly even single activation).

I honestly don't think Strikes are a big deal once you get past the first turn, deployment bunch-up. You know before hand what strikes your opponent has and you know which of his models can call them in. If you don't want to be smacked with an orbital bombardment every turn, then kill his FIST unit w/a couple of IA's. Even if they bring a half dozen FIST teams, they're going to be bunched up themselves due to low mobility, so smoke 'em. Once those FIST units go down, his remaining strikes are just wasted points.

 

Even if he does manage to get all of his strikes off on the first turn or two, so what? Now he's got a bunch of useless models that your guys can ignore until you wipe up the remaining threats.

From my all my playtesting I didn't find the strikes to be at all unbalanced or even that deadly. Most often I didn't even damage anything with them (of course that may have been due to my Scoundrel's luck curse).

 

During our testing, I should add, we were using LoS requirement. I sometimes forget that it hasn't been decide to require it yet. After thinking about it, I feel requiring a FIST model to Scan for Target before being able to call for a strike would fit better.

 

Now when you have an opponent bunched up together (like in the deployment zone) yes you can cripple yer opponent quickly. But outside of the deployment zone there is no reason to bunch up yer model unless you actually want them blown up.

 

WHat is the difference between 8 strikes and 8 IAs (or even 16 DAs)? If I remember correctly I can get 6 CAVs in a specialty platoon. That mean 6 Jo-88Cs with their 12 IA and 3" AoEs Could go rolling thunder down the field turn after turn after turn. And the Jo is a lot harder to kill then an Infantry model with a 9 DV and a tough/2.

 

I really love the Jo-88Cs... it almost makes me want to join the Ritterlich...

[Saint of Sinners]

I kinda like the deployment zone stealth thing.. I'll have to try it out this weekend.

 

I feel like a little kid getting his daddy's approval for the first time

 

[Sergeant_Crunch]

If I remember correctly I can get 6 CAVs in a specialty platoon.

Unless you're faction pure Ritterlich, a specialist platoon has a max of four models. Ritterlich can have four models plus the two tanks from their faction ability.

[Ivarr]

you guys need to playtest the strike rules properly once or twice....try taking ANY 2000 pt force against a terran force like this:

 

650 pts worth of 25 pt strikes of your choice (26 of them)

10 fist capable troops

Whatever you would like to fill it out...perhaps a second unit of fist troops and a couple of tsesuki fighters?... or something with high armor that can mop up the remenants of the opposing force after its decimation at the hands of way to many strikes

 

On a 4'X8' board, requiring a scan makes almost no difference, unless you at minimum declare everything stealthed in the deployment zone, and as stated before, they can still legally declare the strikes on the ground near stealthed units....

 

In any case, even if the 25pt strikes you take are all cruise missiles, this is just a rediculously silly thing to have in a game... period. It will look like a game of missile command on the old atari 2600....not a miniatures game of any kind that I want to play.

[Ivarr]

After you playtest the game above, honesly report whether it is the way that you want to play CAV...doesnt matter who wins in that scenario, just matters whether it is fun....then try to imagine all of that doubled at 4k pts.

[Stubbdog]

well, i have said my $0.02. Matt and company will decide how they want strikes to affect things. At this point I will wait for Matt or Pat to tell us to test something specific and then go from there.

[Saint of Sinners]

you guys need to playtest the strike rules properly once or twice....try taking ANY 2000 pt force against a terran force like this:

 

650 pts worth of 25 pt strikes of your choice (26 of them)

10 fist capable troops

Whatever you would like to fill it out...perhaps a second unit of fist troops and a couple of tsesuki fighters?... or something with high armor that can mop up the remenants of the opposing force after its decimation at the hands of way to many strikes

 

On a 4'X8' board, requiring a scan makes almost no difference, unless you at minimum declare everything stealthed in the deployment zone, and as stated before, they can still legally declare the strikes on the ground near stealthed units....

 

In any case, even if the 25pt strikes you take are all cruise missiles, this is just a rediculously silly thing to have in a game... period. It will look like a game of missile command on the old atari 2600....not a miniatures game of any kind that I want to play.

Ok, I keep reading yer posts and trying to figure out whether you just don't like strikes or if you think they are actually out of balance.

[Chrome]

I'm interested in what you guys are using for deployment zones? Since the beta rules don't have any rules for it, you should all still be using the rules from the original rulebook, which means if you're playing on a standard 4'x8' or recommended 4'x6' table, you've got over 4' to spread your minis out across and at least 12" of depth to spread them out across. You should never have more than 2 models getting hit by an Artillary Strike or Strafing Run.