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Asylum Testing 12 August 2005


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Hello everyone!

 

This is the condensed revision of the original post as edited by ReaperMatt further down the post; it has been cut and pasted here to save everyone from having to read things twice (or more).

 

Summary of Asylum Testing 8/12/05

2 errata (a printing problem)

4 actual changes (the mechanics as presented just aren't saying/doing what we want them to say/do)

6 clarifications (the material is already in the book but some people are doing this one way, some another, this is the way it's supposed to work).

 

Errata (printing problems)

-------------------------------

Page 72, under the paragraph titled "Undead", the sentence, "It differs from Fearless because Undead to [typo preserved] not lose this ability when they fall outside of Cohesion" is legacy text and should be removed.

 

p. 76, under "Greater Magical Protection", Point Cost adjusted from 60 to 40. Note that taking Magical Protection (+2 MD) and Lesser Magic Armor (+1) DV would cost 45 points. The cost of GMP is 40 points due to reduced number of models that can take this item (i.e. Clerics only).

 

Changes (mechanics changes)

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Area of Effect attacks and Range

To clarify printed material and designer intent, some words must be added.

 

Page 57 under "Resolving Troop Combat Action"

Add new last sentence: "For AoE attacks (i.e. spells, volleys) the attack is still resolved at its maximum range along the line of the original declaration."

 

Page 65 under "Range"

Second sentence slightly altered to include words "Target Point."

"The Target Model/Target Point must be within the maximum Range (Rng) plus 6 inches of all Attacking Models as measured from any point on the attacking Model's base to any point on the defending Model's Base or Target Point."

 

Defensive Magic/Defensive Shot

Models with Defensive Magic/Defensive Shot are considered to be able to perform a "Ranged Defensive Action." A Model with a ranged defensive action may return their defensive action when the target of a ranged attack or spell.

 

For example:

An "archer" Model with Defensive Shot is the target of a magical spell. The archer may return its defensive shot against the spellcasting model so long as all normal rules governing a ranged combat action are met (the casting model is in range, if the archer requires line of sight to hit a target then the mage is in line of sight, etc.). This example applies in the reverse when a mage is the target of a ranged attack.

 

Obstacles (like walls) and Movement

Determine the type of cover the obstacle would grant.

 

If the obstacle would grant light cover to the Model crossing it, use the movement modifier x1. In other words, a light cover obstacle presents no game mechanic impedance to movement (the model leaps the low wall, barrels through the hedgerow, etc.).

 

If the obstacle would grant heavy cover to the Model crossing it, use the movement modifier x2. In other words, a heavy cover obstacle slows the Model crossing it (the model must take a moment to negotiate the trench, etc.).

 

If the obstacle would block Line of Sight, the Model must go around the obstacle but it cannot cross it. Scenario rules should be used to dictate exceptions when using terrain that might be an applicable exception to this rule (going through a farmhouse or barn rather than around it). Players should be informed of these special terrain items before play.

 

Blowthrough

Blowthrough can and will go through anything it comes across out to its maximum range. Currently there is no mention to terrain. The following change/addition addresses this. Cover granting terrain features of size 1 or greater (see the chart on p. 66) subtracts from the RAV of the blowthrough as per its cover bonus (either -1 for Light Cover or -2 for Heavy Cover) for every inch of the terrain feature the blowthrough passes through.

 

Example one: In the Banshee's range and a straight line are a warrior, a medium height wooden wall, and another warrior. The first warrior would be attacked at the full RAV of the Banshee, while the second warrior would be hit at -2 RAV modifier; the wall would subtract its Light Cover bonus (1) from the RAV of the blowthrough attack before it continued on to the warrior. If it had been a medium height stone wall the second warrior would be hit at -3 RAV modifier, since the wall would count as heavy cover and subtract two points.

 

Example two: The banshee is facing the narrow end of a Medium Height Stone Wall that is three inches long with an enemy warrior on the other side. The warrior would be hit by the blowthrough at a -6 RAV modifier; each inch of the Medium Height Stone Wall would subtract its Heavy Cover bonus (2) from the effective RAV, and since the warrior would be the first target model hit no further penalties would apply. Any models behind it would incur the cumulative -1 RAV penalty normally. Obviously, this wouldn't be the best of situations for the Banshee.

 

Blowthrough and Surface Elevation (the tabletop itself, hills, and valleys)

Surface Elevation is different from Terrain Obstacles. The Blowthrough attack will follow the curvature of the gaming surface hitting every model as long as LOS is maintained from the attacking model to the target model ignoring intervening models and cover granting terrain.

 

Example one: The Banshee is behind a hill two elevation sizes taller than her with enemies on the far side. The Blowthrough would stop in the hill as she has no LOS with the target models, even though they are within range of the attack.

 

Example two: The Banshee is on top of a wall with a gap two elevation levels lower than her with the wall continuing on the other side of the break and enemies along it. The Blowthrough attack would not be able to hit anything in the bottom of the gap, as the Banshee would have no line of sight to them; however, the models on the far side of the wall would still be hit.

 

Example three: The Banshee is on the ground with a Hill Giant, heavy defensive works, a Bull Orc Fighter, a medium height Wooden wall, a two inch change of elevation that is directly vertical (a bluff edge), and Lunk on the top, all within range of her wail and in a straight line.

 

Since, ignoring cover granting terrain and intervening models, she would have LOS to all models involved they can all be hit by the blowthrough. Note that with the elevation change the direct horizontal distance of the blowthrough attack will be less than 12 inches as the change in vertical elevation must be taken into account as well; the tape measure would travel flat along the ground, curve upwards for the two inch elevation change, then curve back down again to travel along the ground.

 

The Hill Giant would be hit with an unmodified RAV of the Banshee, the Bull Orc Fighter at -3 RAV penalty (-1 for second model, -2 for the heavy defensive works), and Lunk at -5 (-1 RAV penalty for the wooden wall and -1 RAV for being the third model hit).

 

Clarifications (explanations of mechanics)

-------------------------------

Fireball and Cover

Fireball is NOT a baby Firestorm. It is an area of effect spell that is affected by Cover. If the Fireball cannot draw an unblocked Line of Sight from the spell's Target Point to a Model (due to intervening Models or Blocking terrain) then the Model cannot be affected by the Fireball. If the Fireball can draw Line of Sight to the target and it is a clear LOS, the attack is resolved normally. If the LoS is Obstructed, the casting Model's CP will be modified as per the value of the Cover (-1 for light or -2 heavy).

 

See example:

A block of Overlord soldier models is arrayed against Malek, a Mage of the Necropolis army. The Overlord block consists of ten Models, five Warriors in the front rank, in side-to-side base contact with each other Blocking Line of Sight to anything behind them. The other five Overlord Models are crossbowmen, also ranked and in base-to-base contact with each other and the rear side of the warriors.

 

Malek launches a fireball at the ground right in front of the middle warrior's base. The player measures the Area of Effect two inches from that point, and every model under the effect (discussed on page 54) has the possibility of being hit. For each of those models determine line of sight from the target point to them; in this case, a line of warriors in base to base contact, the center warrior, the two warriors to his right, and the two warriors to his left are under the AoE effect (the 2-inch radius circle passes through the center point of their bases). There are no obstructions in a half inch corridor from the target point to them, so the spell resolves at the caster's full CP. The crossbowmen behind the warriors are unaffected, as there is no clear line of sight from the target point to them; the warriors block the line of sight corridor.

 

Example two:

An archer is standing behind a Heavy Cover granting Defensive Field Work. A fireball lands in front of the field work. The casting Model will roll against that archer with a -2 to its CP roll versus the archer's MD.

 

Mercy and Model Participation

First, Mercy can only be used in conjunction with Melee attacks; you cannot offer it at range or via a spell. Mercy is intended to be the foot on the neck with the sword poised offering one last chance of redemption (or of at least not getting stabbed by said sword).

 

In order to offer Mercy, a model has to have inflicted damage upon the target in that activation.

 

For example, Duke Gerard and a Templar Warrior are attacking a lone Bull Orc Warrior. Duke Gerard fantastically misses with all three of his attacks, while the warrior hits with his. Only the Templar Warrior may attempt to offer Mercy, as he was the only one who caused damage to the Bull Orc Warrior, using his own DIS rating (which is still a hefty 6).

 

Example two. Three Templar Warriors and Lord Ironraven attack a Darkspawn Warrior. Damage is simultaneous, however, we as players must resolve things sequentially. The Crusader player decides to resolve the Warrior's attacks first. After resolving the second Templar's attacks, the Darkspawn is down. The Crusader player must resolve all remaining attacks because only the Models that inflict damage can offer Mercy. After resolving Ironraven's attacks, Ironraven scored a single hit. Ironraven and any Templars that inflicted damage are now eligible to offer Mercy.

 

Razig's Revenge Affiliation

Models of Razig's Revenge are Affiliation "Razig/Evil" not "Mercenary/(whatever)" and therefore are their own army as if they were Crusaders, Reven, or any other for all game purposes.

 

Razig's Revenge are reported as Mercenaries on ReaperGames only and are considered Mercenaries ONLY on Reaper Games. This will continue until such time as we can code/program a suitable web presence for the Captain and his crew.

 

Sequential Same Type Actions by Models in the Same Troop

All combat actions of the same type must be resolved at the same time. Actions that require a sequential order in order to complete (i.e. "first I must do this, then I can do this") are by definition not "at the same time."

 

In this example, both models are in the same Troop. A spellcasting Model that has been teleported by another spellcaster cannot cast a spell of its own. This is because in order to cast its own spell it must first rely on another model to complete its spell. All spells must be resolved at the same time. The model that has been teleported can perform close combat or ranged combat as normal so long as other Models in the troop have not yet conducted their own close combat or ranged combat actions.

 

Looting Equipment in NORMAL Warlord Play

In normal play, when you loot a model on the battlefield in the course of a normal game you do not gain any weapons, equipment, spells, or any other items from the body. Campaign play and scenarios where this is not the case will have rules to cover how looting operates.

 

Reptus and Reven. Just the Trolls folks, just the Trolls.

On page 111 of the rulebook under the Reven "Trolls" special ability, the last sentence reads, "River Trolls (but not Uru) may be fielded as Solo Models in a Reven Fighting Company as well as the Reptus."

 

We really do not think that anyone would ever mistake the emphasis of that paragraph, especially as the header states "Trolls", but if you read the sentence a certain way you could possibly misconstrue it as meaning you can take any of the Reptus as solos in a Reven force. Which, incidentally, you can't.

 

That's all there is for this week; look for more in coming weeks as we constantly look at Warlord. We ask that you keep posts in this thread related to the information inside here and post new questions in new topics in order to keep these somewhat on target.

Edited by Reaper Matt
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AOE thing--Designer's intent comes through in the language of the revised text. I don't hate the ruling. I always though that volley was not worth the price. This changes it a little.

 

Greater Magical Ripoff--goes in the "well duh" category and is a good fix.

 

Razig--you need to change the text in the download to say that they are their own faction and considered Merc ONLY for reporting on warlordHQ. The language there now indicates that they are mercs or is at least unclear.

 

Skeeters outrange mages in most of their spells. This effectively makes Skeeters immune to all but suicidal mages as the +3 countershots will kill the mage. I'm on a Reven kick so I'm fine with this as it makes their points much less painful as they are now "Mage Bane"!!!

 

Blowthrough--I always thought and played it as though terrain stopped it cold or it never came up because my banshees always got clear los. It's late and I need to read this one in the morning.

 

I've yet to play in a campaign so the looting thingy is nothing I've given much thought to.

 

Thanks for the effort and the timely response to all of the crap we post.

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About the defensive ranged/magic--Skeeters are really going to be beefed by this one. You're going to need some flavor text to describe the reason no mage dares to cast at them or better yet, a short story!

 

My suggestion is that Defensive shots have a penalty to hit. -2 seems a good one. For that matter, defensive everything (strikes, magic, ranged) could have that and it wouldn't hurt my feelings and would also give a benefit to attacking and also better represent shooting from the hip in response to an attack. The penalty for reacting rather than acting.

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Well, you had to know that the first printing was too thin to really be a complete rules set! Hopefully there will be some slightly more concise writing though... No offense Golden Eagle, beautiful job!

 

I have to say I had no idea Fireball was intended to work like that, good to know! Firestorm suddenly got a lot cooler for me.

 

It does seem a little odd that the more archers you have the further their shots go, but, I'm ok with it. It's not that much further and it cuts down on the time spent measuring every model...

 

One more thing, could we maybe get a copy of the original post pinned in the Rules Forum? Keeping the most up to date Errata posted and locking it makes a certain amount of sense... Or maybe get abnqi some permission to pin his errata page as he updates with these posts?

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Ranzadule: Defensive shot is currently in use by very few models and has a high points cost; we have no intentions on modifying its usage because of this.

 

The wording on the errata on the section is corrected to say is instead of may.

 

Velveteen, it helps to think of it not so much as making arrows go further, but rather the spread as more archers pump more arrows into the sky for a volley. The volley is the same size regardless if they're aiming 5 or 30 inches away. The target point has a maximum range it can reach to, but the arrows still fall around it as normal.

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Great stuff! I'm a little concerned about the sheer quantities of changes here. Especially as the GenCon tourney is only 1 week away, there's no way all of the tourney players will know the new rules. ::(:

 

Fireball

An example: A line of Overlord Warriors has a line of Overlord Crossbowmen right behind them (using the Ranked special ability). There is no gap between the bases of the Overlord Warriors. A Fireball targetting one of the warriors would affect the warriors to the left and right of him, and any models who would be in range of the spell in front would be hit, but the crossbowmen behind them would not be hit, as the line of warriors would block line of sight from the spell effect to the crossbowmen.

I don't understand how the warriors to the left and right of the target model would get hit, but not the crossbowman right behind him. What's blocking the fireball from hitting the crossbowman directly behind the targetted warrior?

lineofsite.jpg

 

p. 72, under the paragraph titled "Undead", the third sentence, "It differs from Fearless because Undead to [typo preserved] not lose this ability when they fall outside of Cohesion" should be removed.

 

It had not yet reared its head in the forums, but we felt it should be addressed in the eventuality it would.

Hey! We brought this up like the first day! ::P:

http://www.reapermini.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=15308

No one ever responded to my asking about it....

 

On page 111 of the rulebook under the Reven "Trolls" special ability, the last sentence reads, "River Trolls (but not Uru) may be fielded as Solo Models in a Reven Fighting Company as well as the Reptus."

Might I suggest future printings of the rulebook simply leave out the text "as well as the Reptus."? I don't see why it was ever in there.

 

My suggestion is that Defensive shots have a penalty to hit.  -2 seems a good one.  For that matter, defensive everything (strikes, magic, ranged) could have that and it wouldn't hurt my feelings and would also give a benefit to attacking and also better represent shooting from the hip in response to an attack.  The penalty for reacting rather than acting.

I think this penalty is already there in the form of a high point cost for the special ability. Not too many people use Skeeters because of their high point cost. This change just helps make them worth the point cost. ^_^

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I think this penalty is already there in the form of a high point cost for the special ability.

 

I am ok with the ruling. I simply wanted to point out that the liol gobbos outrange all of the wizards. :poke:

 

 

Not too many people use Skeeters because of their high point cost. This change just helps make them worth the point cost.

 

Place me firmly in the camp of the few then. Once the Archer/Adept rule came out, the value of Skeeters went up a bit as Reven became the only force that can use two archer units. They are also the only force that can hae ~20 archers in one unit. This made Skeeters a good buy. The new rule only makes it more certain. ::D:

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Fireball
An example: A line of Overlord Warriors has a line of Overlord Crossbowmen right behind them (using the Ranked special ability). There is no gap between the bases of the Overlord Warriors. A Fireball targetting one of the warriors would affect the warriors to the left and right of him, and any models who would be in range of the spell in front would be hit, but the crossbowmen behind them would not be hit, as the line of warriors would block line of sight from the spell effect to the crossbowmen.

I don't understand how the warriors to the left and right of the target model would get hit, but not the crossbowman right behind him. What's blocking the fireball from hitting the crossbowman directly behind the targetted warrior?

lineofsite.jpg

Gus: You always bring up a lot of good points ::D:. We had been blazing through a lot of stuff yesterday so I wasn't able to look through everything on the forums. Most of what we discussed were the "hot topics" of the moment with us throwing in smaller ones while looking up things from other questions or stuff from our own games. I'll qualify future posts by saying, "I believe it hasn't popped up" and cover my keester that way ::D:.

 

About Fireball: The Crossbowmen are not hit because the warriors in front block the fireball. The paragraph you quoted is an example of how fireball is intended to work, and the following paragraphs explain the mechanics of how and why in detail.

 

Fireball is an AoE spell you can have a limited defense against with judicious use of cover; it's not a baby Firestorm.

 

In your example, the target of the spell appears to be the Overlord warrior in the front rank; you cannot target a model as such, and all the explanations of how/why/whatzit are above.

 

On the Reptus part: This was something we really never ever thought anyone would do, but once we get around to another edit it's a phrase we can trim with few problems I think (though Matt's the Grand Editornator).

 

And you've hit it on the nose Gus; models with Defensive Shot are paying a lot of points for it, and it doesn't always have a chance to be used. It's true mages are outdistanced by most archers with Defensive Shot, but hey, why not make life a little more interesting for them ::D:.

 

And Ranzadule, it's true the Reven can have more archer units than other armies, but filling out large numbers of them can be the bulk of your points in smaller engagements. With more and more Cavalry appearing on the field the advantage is going to quickly diminish.

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A Fireball targetting one of the warriors
In your example, the target of the spell appears to be the Overlord warrior in the front rank; you cannot target a model as such

 

:blink::blink::blink:

 

I was using your example! ::P:

 

Maybe you wanna edit your original post to take out the mention of a fireball targetting a warrior in the first example? ^_^

 

 

I'd also like to go on record to say that I am thrilled Firestorm & Defensive Shot are finally worth me taking them! :lol:

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A Fireball targetting one of the warriors
In your example, the target of the spell appears to be the Overlord warrior in the front rank; you cannot target a model as such

 

:blink::blink::blink:

 

I was using your example! ::P:

 

Maybe you wanna edit your original post to take out the mention of a fireball targetting a warrior in the first example? ^_^

 

 

I'd also like to go on record to say that I am thrilled Firestorm & Defensive Shot are finally worth me taking them! :lol:

Aaaaaah, gotcha ::D:. Sorry, I wrote my reply 5 minutes after waking up to get ready to come to the Asylum. Fixing it now and adding in the part about Mercy I forgot to throw in.

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Yow. This is going to take some digesting. I'm not looking forward to explaining to my group that we've been doing Fireball wrong from day one. It does seem to make it a lot less likely that one will get 50 points of casualty from, a 50-point fireball. That said, I see the reason for the way it is and am not arguing with it. I do wish it had been made clear in the book that Fireball is an LOS effect emanating from a point and Firestorm was a template-gout of fire from on high.

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