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Reaperbryan

Avast Ye, Scurvy Dog!

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Second: How do you defeat this army? I fielded it and a 1500-pt variant, and the soul cannons just ate everything. The opponent spent all game charging me, and maybe three of his models even reached me.

I've tangled with Raz and the boys a couple times. The soul cannons can be devastating and should be taken out as early as possible. As you attack them, keep spread out so the friggin' guns can't use their blowthrough. Fast troops such as Cavalry or Unforgiven with a musician work well for blitzing soul cannons. A real key to the Pirates can be Razig himself. Beating him down forces the army to sacrifice a lot of points to bring him back. Yes, he comes up fit and trim, but it should be right back into a swarm of your troops to die again.

 

Castlebuilder

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As it stands right now, Razig's Revenge is a ranged army. Similar to the Elves. Some of you guys may disagree, but all of our leaders have a ranged attack, we have awesome ranged adepts, and awesome ranged elites.

The problem people have is they don't expect a ranged faction out of a bunch of undead pirates, so they don't load up on the mounted units, the counter fire, or the high dv + deflect grunts. Nobody would bring the soft expensive guys to play against the elves, but they do against the pirates.

 

The soul cannon's biggest weakness is it's speed. It can't get away once you get to it, and it's a beast to menuever to get a good shot.

If a single grunt can get to the cannon it's pretty much toast. If two can get to it, it's a done deal.

 

If I was going up against that army, My biggest concern would be the Bone Marines. I love these guys, which means they are deadly. Go up against them like you would any other archer/crossbowmen.

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Having faced the Soul Cannons with Goblins, I didn't complain about being spanked soundly. They were Goblins after all...

 

However, I've now had some time to think about it and I have to conclude they are overpowered.

 

Blowthrough with a 24" range and RAV 5 for 49 points? Multiple Damage Tracks? Take it as a Non-Unique Solo AND in Elite spots? Sign me up!

 

With a starting DV 10 it isn't close to toast if a single grunt gets to it, even two Bull Orc Fighters could have a tough time taking it down. Even its MAV 1 is better than most Archers.

 

Take them out with your own Archers? Sure, you may have range on them (depending on your army), but they get Deflect on top of the DV 10. Even the Elves will have to put more than a couple of Archers on them to ensure they get taken down.

 

Magic? Better have a good caster with their starting MD 12.

 

Compare them to any other armies ranged units, it puts them to shame without much of an increase in cost.

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Well in and of themselves the soulcannons really aren't broken at all. Its when you start seeing them as both solos and elites that you start feeling the pain. My biggest 'tactic' is using my reptus warriors to ram in and hammer them. With a DV of 11 plus deflect the cannons need 7's to hit. Yeah that isn't horribly hard to hit but for the points of 4 cannons I get 8 warriors. And as Shakhak said you only need 1 to munch through the cannons. I usually back the warriors up with Tkay and bandages (sometimes two of her depending on the points) and she keeps the warriors up and running.

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Also try to remember, you don't have to charge the guns. If you make razig come to you the cannon cannot follow. They are just to slow. Plus , thier Dis isn't great, so if you can get a grunt into base to base they're usually stuck.

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I don't see how you can claim one grunt basing them makes them toast. DV 10 is no slouch.

 

In play, every time I based them with grunts another unit (usually another Soul Cannon) would take them out. No problems with missed DIS checks for firing into B2B either, since if they did get Shaken the grunt was usually gone anyway with their RAV 5.

 

Maybe if you play on a bigger table making them come to you is a more viable tactic, but they will still get into range eventually and then you face the exact same problems - only now you are backed up.

 

Remember, these are supposed to be 49 point units...

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If Soul Cannon (A) shot your Model, in base to base contact with another Soul Cannon (B), then Cannon B would most likely also be hit by the Blowthrough. Unless the attacking Model was at exactly the end of range for Cannon A, or Cannon A was firing virtually parallel to that base side of Cannon B.

 

So, sure, fire away, and make the discipline check, but also don't forget to check and roll for that point of damage as well.

 

Blowthrough effects ALL models in that line, not just Enemy models.

 

Make sure when you bring in an attacking model, to try and stick it dead center on the base side of the Soul Cannon to increase the chances it will get tagged by friendly fire because of the firing angles. Also try to position the attacking model(s) on the side where the other Cannons have already fired, if possible.

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I'll try and layout the strength of other ranged units in comparison to the cannon.

 

But things that those other ranged models come with are strength in numbers, fast movement, and a smaller base size.

The number of models allows variety in the attack, they can single out a strong model and elliminate him in a single round or spread the shots among many models. Having numbers also allows some archers to volley adding distance and the ability to hit models that are not in LOS.

Movement is a huge advantage for a ranged model, it lets you put yourself in a position to shot the target you want. It also is useful for escaping a ranged units worst nightmare, cavalry; it's their only defense so every little bit helps.

A smaller base size allows the ranged model to hide behind almost all of your grunts. Granting them cover from return fire, or completely blocking LOS.

 

Now the cannon's biggest strength is easily it's high Rav. It's a Rav almost no one else in the game comes close too. And I think it's the biggest reason people get shocked when they read the Cannon's Stats.(similar to Uru's Armor)

Along with some heavy hitting it has a decent range, really good armor for a ranged model, and multiple Damage tracks.

 

Now some flaws for the cannon:

Large Base + Blowthrough:

Usually a large base is a blessing for a ranged model, it gives LOS to everyone on the field, but with blowthrough you still have to worry about getting a clear shot so you don't shoot your own guys, and so you don't have to try and make it through a grunt with high DV. So all you really have is a model everyone can take a shot at with armor thats not hard to hit with normal archers.

Slow Movement:

Getting into range and aligning a shot that takes advantage of blowthrough that doesn't hit your guy is tough when you only get 4" of play.

Razig's lack of healing:

Once a soul cannon gets hit that's pretty much all she wrote. All the stats are halfed and there are no cleric's among the pirates. The only option here is to take the risky and expensive Life Transfer but if Clarissa is on the board, she should probably spend her time healing razig.

 

So do the pros out way the cons, and if so should the cost be increased?

I don't think so. Just work around it. If it wasn't any good we wouldn't play with it. If you think an army is really hacked, keep it and have someone else play with it and you use their army. Pay attention to how well you roll with the model also, sometimes a steak of 9s can seem like a broken model.

 

Edit: I wanted to mention that I'm pumped people are posting int he Razig thread, if I can't play them, I want to talk about them!

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In reply to Qwick...

 

Way ahead of you.

 

Drawing the "line" of Blowthrough can be done to keep you from hitting the other Soul Cannon easily - it's large base isn't that big of a detriment (in fact, it seemed to help). Three inches of movement can get you to the "virtual parallel" easy enough when you have 4 others to get into position. Dead center didn't help a bit...

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The number of models allows variety in the attack, they can single out a strong model and elliminate him in a single round or spread the shots among many models. Having numbers also allows some archers to volley adding distance and the ability to hit models that are not in LOS.

Because they are available as a both Non-Unique Solos and Elites, the Soul Cannons give you the numbers. Plus they activate separately and add more cards to the initiative deck.

 

Plus Volley only hits something not in LOS if you have a Blazer or they happen to be close enough to get caught in the AOE.

 

Movement is a huge advantage for a ranged model, it lets you put yourself in a position to shot the target you want. It also is useful for escaping a ranged units worst nightmare, cavalry; it's their only defense so every little bit helps.

Yes, movement IS a huge advantage, but we are only talking about a difference of 3 (3 vs 6).

 

We do "know" the cost of -3 MOV from the generic card alteration costs, -3/Damage Track. So that shouldn't be the sole factor in their cheap cost.

 

A smaller base size allows the ranged model to hide behind almost all of your grunts. Granting them cover from return fire, or completely blocking LOS.

Since Blowthrough is a line, you can use your grunts to give cover to the Soul Cannons as well.

 

Small vs Large bases is situational as to being good or bad, see my comments to Qwick above.

 

Now the cannon's biggest strength is easily it's high Rav. It's a Rav almost no one else in the game comes close too. And I think it's the biggest reason people get shocked when they read the Cannon's Stats.(similar to Uru's Armor)

Along with some heavy hitting it has a decent range, really good armor for a ranged model, and multiple Damage tracks.

For 49 points.

 

Now some flaws for the cannon:

Large Base + Blowthrough:

Usually a large base is a blessing for a ranged model, it gives LOS to everyone on the field, but with blowthrough you still have to worry about getting a clear shot so you don't shoot your own guys, and so you don't have to try and make it through a grunt with high DV.

But since Blowthrough is a line, you can keep your own guys close enough to not have to worry about hitting them.

 

So all you really have is a model everyone can take a shot at with armor thats not hard to hit with normal archers.

DV 10 with Deflect. Even Elves need an 8 or better to hit. That's not easy.

 

Slow Movement:

Getting into range and aligning a shot that takes advantage of blowthrough that doesn't hit your guy is tough when you only get 4" of play.

Didn't see it in actual play.

 

Razig's lack of healing:

Once a soul cannon gets hit that's pretty much all she wrote. All the stats are halfed and there are no cleric's among the pirates. The only option here is to take the risky and expensive Life Transfer but if Clarissa is on the board, she should probably spend her time healing razig.

But you have to hit them first. Not to be a broken record, but DV 10 with Deflect...

 

So do the pros out way the cons, and if so should the cost be increased?

I don't think so. Just work around it. If it wasn't any good we wouldn't play with it.

And if it's TOO GOOD?

 

While I do believe it is somewhat undercosted, to be fair my biggest gripe is the fact that it is a Non-Unique Solo AND an Elite. It should be Unique, as either a Solo or an Elite.

 

Everybody gets their nasty toy to play with, Razig just gets too many...

 

If you think an army is really hacked, keep it and have someone else play with it and you use their army. Pay attention to how well you roll with the model also, sometimes a steak of 9s can seem like a broken model.

It's not my army, I'm pointing out what I feel is lop-sided. There was some bad rolling on my part, combined with some good rolling on my opponents side, but when he is left with well over 600 points to my 238 (150 of which was a Totem, with 2 Archers) that goes beyond some bad rolls.

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I had my soul cannons clumped in about an 8" space, and I was playing very defensively, letting him come to me with his 50-some goblins. I could always get a good shot with the SC in a 3" move. Most of the time, I could also get at least two or three models with every shot, since the 1.5" base gave me a lot of room to start the blowthrough line and angle it so that it wouldn't hit a Razing model.

 

Actually, Razig is the sort of army where you shoot into melee with no regard for your troops because hey, they're skeletons. We'll make more.

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Frosch:

I think that the Goblin army against a ranged army was just bad army building. Try that same Goblin army against an Elven army. Use the Sargent, 8 archers, as many Centaurs as possible, and I bet you have the same effect.

I also think that the sheer number of models that a goblin army usually comes at you with leaves you plenty more open shots than in most games.

 

D. Snack:

The cost of 3 movement is completely off in the Stat building section. That's already been clarified. The cost would vary for some models. Look at the magic items that increase speed.

And it's not just 3". On a double move you get 6" and they get 12", on a road that number means even more. There are alot of situations.

 

I know you feel the model shouldn't be a non-unique elite and solo but that is a hindrence. It takes the spot of other elites. It fills up that captains spot for Clarrisa or Jackie Bones.

 

And you were mentioning keeping models close, blowthrough does hit your own models. You can't shoot over them, it hits everything in the line. The only way around this is to hit your own models, which Frosch appears to not have a problem with :)

 

I also can't relate to the hang up on DV of 10. To me that really isn't a high dv for an elite or a solo. Especially when it's for something you're depending on to get your kills.

 

 

And I mentioned switching armies because it really does help to see how powerful the other players models are. Try it out, it won't hurt. Play Razig and fill an army list full of soul cannons.

 

I'm going to try out a bunch of cannons this thursday and see if it really adds anything to my game. I usually only have 2 because of the lack of solos and elites.

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I know you feel the model shouldn't be a non-unique elite and solo but that is a hindrence. It takes the spot of other elites. It fills up that captains spot for Clarrisa or Jackie Bones.

 

 

Uhhh yeah, but Jackie and Clarrisa can't sit back and take out multiple models per turn (every Turn) as you try to base them.

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Used correctly cannons can be very effective. However, If they are not in a good firing postion at the beginning of the fight they will Never get there.

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