The invincible Rhino....

[Crazy8]

So last night myself and Joel47 did a little CAV 2.0 demo/playtest at our FLGS. It was a pretty good time besides the fact that Joel used me as a lab rat/whipping boy () to prove his point that upgrade costs are not expensive enough. I definitely believe that he has a solid gripe/concern.

 

My force:

Armor platoon: Hawk 6, Ronin, Katana and Falcon.

Mechanized Infantry: 2 x Tsukai APC, 2 x Light Mortar, 2 x Assault

CAS Flight: 2 x Harpy

 

The "bad guys":

Armor Platoon: Rhino, Mastodon, Blitz, Panther and a tank ( I don't know what kind but it was never a factor in the game.)

Mechanized Infantry: 2 x Fenri, 4 x Assault

 

All my forces were "basic" no upgrades. Joel's Rhino was upgraded with: Accurized, Armor and something else that slips my mind at the moment. His Mastodon was also upgraded as well (along the same lines as the Rhino.)

 

Needless to say even with Run and Gun and Hunter for the Hawk 6 it was impossible to scratch the Rhino. And I mean impossible in the sense that it was numerically impossible for me to roll a number high enough to defeat his DV + Range penalty. I was consistenly finding myself faced with 13's - 16's to roll numbers. Unfortunately I was unable to close the distance gap fast enough to do damage since his Rhino was dealing out three to four damage per turn due to it's incredibly high RAV #'s.

 

When we finally called the game (due to the FLGS closing) I was down to a damaged Katana, three infantry stands and my two APC's. He still had his untouched tank, 1 damaged Fenri, an untouched Blitz, Rhino and Mastodon. The two best Terran Battlefield Superiority CAV's were in ruins without ever posing a serious threat to the Rhino or Mastodon.

 

His suggestion was instead of having a flat point cost for upgrades (i.e Accurized being 15 points for Rhino or Assault Infantry) it be 5 points per damage track. So, to Accurize a Rhino would cost 30 points (6 Damage tracks x 5, etc.) I'm going to throw my vote behind this one as well! I'll also vote for a +2 increase in all ECM values. We played ECM at a +1 and with his upgrades there were a lot of times where he only had to roll 3's or 4's to get a missile hit. (This was especially deadly when doing a Run n Gun with that damn accurized Rhino.)

 

Still, all in all, good times. Plus we had a couple of guys that seemed pretty interested in the game and although they didn't want to join in they ended up watching from start to finish. Hopefully Joel will get a chance to jump online today and let you guys know what all of his upgrades were exactly, I know he'll be looking for a thread like this as we joked about me running to the forums ASAP.

 

So, in summary. Upgrade costs should probably be looked at, as well as the process for upgrading a unit. ECM definitely needs to be bumped up a bit, at least 1 but I would vote for 2. Strikes seem to be way better balanced now, although I only used one strafing run the whole mechanic seems to run better.

 

EDIT*** Check out this thread for Joels take on things: "1.5 much improved" That's what happens when you post at the same time...

[Ivarr]

So last night myself and Joel47 did a little CAV 2.0 demo/playtest at our FLGS. It was a pretty good time besides the fact that Joel used me as a lab rat/whipping boy () to prove his point that upgrade costs are not expensive enough. I definitely believe that he has a solid gripe/concern.

 

My force:

Armor platoon: Hawk 6, Ronin, Katana and Falcon.

Mechanized Infantry: 2 x Tsukai APC, 2 x Light Mortar, 2 x Assault

CAS Flight: 2 x Harpy

 

The "bad guys":

Armor Platoon: Rhino, Mastodon, Blitz, Panther and a tank ( I don't know what kind but it was never a factor in the game.)

Mechanized Infantry: 2 x Fenri, 4 x Assault

 

All my forces were "basic" no upgrades. Joel's Rhino was upgraded with: Accurized, Armor and something else that slips my mind at the moment. His Mastodon was also upgraded as well (along the same lines as the Rhino.)

 

Needless to say even with Run and Gun and Hunter for the Hawk 6 it was impossible to scratch the Rhino. And I mean impossible in the sense that it was numerically impossible for me to roll a number high enough to defeat his DV + Range penalty. I was consistenly finding myself faced with 13's - 16's to roll numbers. Unfortunately I was unable to close the distance gap fast enough to do damage since his Rhino was dealing out three to four damage per turn due to it's incredibly high RAV #'s.

 

When we finally called the game (due to the FLGS closing) I was down to a damaged Katana, three infantry stands and my two APC's. He still had his untouched tank, 1 damaged Fenri, an untouched Blitz, Rhino and Mastodon. The two best Terran Battlefield Superiority CAV's were in ruins without ever posing a serious threat to the Rhino or Mastodon.

 

His suggestion was instead of having a flat point cost for upgrades (i.e Accurized being 15 points for Rhino or Assault Infantry) it be 5 points per damage track. So, to Accurize a Rhino would cost 30 points (6 Damage tracks x 5, etc.) I'm going to throw my vote behind this one as well! I'll also vote for a +2 increase in all ECM values. We played ECM at a +1 and with his upgrades there were a lot of times where he only had to roll 3's or 4's to get a missile hit. (This was especially deadly when doing a Run n Gun with that damn accurized Rhino.)

 

Still, all in all, good times. Plus we had a couple of guys that seemed pretty interested in the game and although they didn't want to join in they ended up watching from start to finish. Hopefully Joel will get a chance to jump online today and let you guys know what all of his upgrades were exactly, I know he'll be looking for a thread like this as we joked about me running to the forums ASAP.

 

So, in summary. Upgrade costs should probably be looked at, as well as the process for upgrading a unit. ECM definitely needs to be bumped up a bit, at least 1 but I would vote for 2. Strikes seem to be way better balanced now, although I only used one strafing run the whole mechanic seems to run better.

 

EDIT*** Check out this thread for Joels take on things: "1.5 much improved" That's what happens when you post at the same time...

 

 

I definately see your concerns, however, Wednesday evening in a 4k vs 4k game Garrand leveled a Rhino (which had improved armor and accurized) in turn one with 3 spiders. All three stood still and double fired missiles.....and that was with +2 ECM across the board.

 

I wouldnt mind a scaled cost for accurize and Xtra Armor, but I have not found them quite as overpowering so far. Earlier Wednesday evening, during the demo, the Rhino was leveled quite handily by combined fire from an Assasin and a Dictator 70 I think......though it may have been a Tiger and an Assasin. (this Rhino was unmodified though)

[Crazy8]

Unmodified I could've definitely delt with both of them... but since my force was missile light (the only two CAVs with MA were the Hawk 6 and Katana) I had to close the range... and I couldn't get the range down fast enough to do damage. Especially when the Rhino did the Run n Gun with modifiers. At one point I think he hit 3 out of 4 attacks on the Hawk 6 and the next round hit 3 out of 4 on the Ronin.

[Joel47]

A heavier missile load might have helped him, but the Upgrade Crazy8 couldn't remember was a point-defense turret. Also, I probably would have stayed out of LOS (running-and-gunning out from behind cover) had I been facing a more missile-heavy force. As it was, I just plodded forward and ignored incoming fire.

[Castlebuilder]

I had a similar dilema last night, but it was facing a T-bird instead of a Rhino (No upgrades either). The first game was platoon vs. platoon. My first shots on the T-bird were a joke. Before I learned my lesson it started smoking my CAV's. The second game I treated the T-bird like a King Tiger. I killed off supporting CAV's until I could get close, then hammered the friggin' bird at point blank range. It died very nicely.........

 

Castlebuilder

[Spartan6]

I don't see a problem with the upgrades. I use them and have had them used against me. I've never had a problem dropping a Rhino with extra armor. Of course I accurize everything.

[Sergeant_Crunch]

And of course, no matter what, a natural 10 is always a hit plus a chance for extra damage in the first range band. Unless he's got engineers he's not going be able to get that first track back.

[vejlin]

I don't see a problem with the upgrades. I use them and have had them used against me. I've never had a problem dropping a Rhino with extra armor. Of course I accurize everything.

 

If taking the upgrades is a no-brainer, and everyone takes them all the time then I think it should be more expensive. Otherwise it doesn't really addanything to the game and the upgrades could be left out of the game with no real impact.

[Crazy8]

And of course, no matter what, a natural 10 is always a hit plus a chance for extra damage in the first range band. Unless he's got engineers he's not going be able to get that first track back.

 

 

The problem was trying to make it to the first range band before getting shredded...

[ReaperDarryl]

the problem im seeing is it doesnt sound like you had any cover, in the games weve been playing here ppl having cover from my rhino has allowed them to close in rather safely

[Crazy8]

the problem im seeing is it doesnt sound like you had any cover, in the games weve been playing here ppl having cover from my rhino has allowed them to close in rather safely

 

 

Mmmmmmm... there was cover but most of it was partial with a -1 modifier. Obviously missiles render that -1 null and void so I was technically playing without it.

[Sergeant_Crunch]

Sounds like you could use some more blocking terrain on your table. Could also try covering fire from one platoon while the other advances. Although, this probably isn't as useful in smaller games.

[Joel47]

Realize, folks, that we're not saying things are incredibly broken, we're just saying Accurized (especially) and Armor are too cheap. Look at Point Defense Turret -- besides some ancillary effects, it gives two more armor vs just missiles and costs 35, vs Armor's +1 vs everything else for 15. At the very least, Accurized should be split into Accurate Guns, Accurate Indirect and Accurate Missiles for 15 each, but I still think upgrades like that should scale similar to the upgrades in CAV 1. Sure, it adds a little complexity, but CAV 2 has done such a good job at simplifying things I think we could put a little bit back without hurting anything. As it stands, you will never, ever see an Accurized Rifle Team, but if my suggestion in the other thread were adopted (2 pts/attack/damage track), it'd just cost 2 points more (or 6 using the 10% cost model). If that sounds too cheap, realize that that same formula would add 56 points to a Rhino, which as it stands I'd still buy every time.

 

Sounds like you could use some more blocking terrain on your table.

Back in CAV 1, we always had to set up *gobs* of blocking terrain. The table looked like the Badlands. I'd really prefer not to go back to that. I had wanted to use a little more (there was lots of Flames of War going on before we got there, so there wasn't much to choose from, though we did have two large forests), but I don't envision CAV as a modern infantry skirmish game (stay in cover or die instantly). It was Crazy8's first game, but I didn't bother using any tactics with the Rhino & Mastodon.

[vejlin]

Perhaps we should try to take note of any upgrades that are always bought, since this is probably a pretty good indicator that it's too powerfull for the cost. Isn't there a Con coming up? wonder how many of the CAV players will use accurized and/or armor upgrades for all their CAVs?

 

Buyinmg the upgrade should be a tricky question, where the player sees advantages and disadvantages in both buying it and not buying it.