I love cavalry!

[Arbiter10]

To echo Tsetsen: great post, Qwyk.

 

As Storminator likes to say about tabletop battles "It's like Rock Paper Scissors, Cavalry beats Archers, Archers beat Grunts, Grunts beat Cavalry"

Not having played many different mini games, I was wondering if this really holds true for other games like WHFB/40K, and others. I haven't played many games, but I have come across discussions on other message boards and have never heard this before.

 

More importantly, if this is the case, is this mechanic something that is intentionally built in to games to add a layer of strategy, or is it based on how things work in real life? I would've thought that archers would be good against cavalry, not vice-versa (what was that battle where a small number of English longbowmen slaughtered a massive number of French knights?).

[Tsetsen Muur]

To echo Tsetsen: great post, Qwyk.

 

As Storminator likes to say about tabletop battles "It's like Rock Paper Scissors, Cavalry beats Archers, Archers beat Grunts, Grunts beat Cavalry"

Not having played many different mini games, I was wondering if this really holds true for other games like WHFB/40K, and others. I haven't played many games, but I have come across discussions on other message boards and have never heard this before.

 

More importantly, if this is the case, is this mechanic something that is intentionally built in to games to add a layer of strategy, or is it based on how things work in real life? I would've thought that archers would be good against cavalry, not vice-versa (what was that battle where a small number of English longbowmen slaughtered a massive number of French knights?).

Agincourt was mostly a battle of terrian. The French were fighting uphill, thruogh the mud. If memory serves, only one of the French pushes was mounted, the rest were gropos.

 

Agincourt

 

I think the RCS metaphor shakes out of game play

 

(forgive the one-handed typing. I think I caught most of the errors)

[Darthiir]

As Storminator likes to say about tabletop battles "It's like Rock Paper Scissors, Cavalry beats Archers, Archers beat Grunts, Grunts beat Cavalry"

 

If you're going to face a lot of Cavalry, bring lots of foot soldiers. You can get 8 models on any single Cavalry model.

 

Any army that depends soley on a specific model type is doomed for failure. Even against elves, most armies can field multiple models with only minor upgrades that will require you to roll 9's and 10's. Heck, some have stock grunt models that can do that. DV 11 + Deflect = DV 12 vs Elven RAV 3.

 

Archers are the elven army's strength, but it's not their sole feature. You've got good mages, great movement on most of your models. Field a troop or two of Warriors, Spearmen and Deathseekers.

 

And, most importantly to elven archer survival. Run away. Your guys have 7 inches of movement and a 30 inch range. You should be able to get at least 2 rounds of fire off, if not three if you can manage some elevation to increase your range and reduce your opponent's movement. Fire and move. Fire and move. Spread out. Cavalry can't get you all, and you can shoot into melee without fear. LOS of sight issues for you are a virtual joke. So, you sacrifice an archer or two. The reason I was able to cream the elven archers when I faced them is that they didn't move. They stood there and kept firing at almost close range, hoping for the one lucky shot and double the chances of it instead of moving up another inch to get a +1 bonus to RAV for being within 6 inches, and then standing there shooting at just the Cavalry when 2 more troops of units advanced. If they shot, and then ran so they remained in their range, but out of the range of the Xbow and all the troops, it would have been more rounds to chance rolls. Plus, he could have used his melee troops to soften everyone else up.

 

Surrounding Cavalry is the way to kill em. Once you have a guy in b2b, if they are packed in formation, they cannot do defender adjusts, so your second guy in is going to be on a rear base if you're smart and they can't Defensive Strike him, so bring in the heavy hitting low DV guys (like Death Seekers or Breakers) there.

 

Cavalry doesn't bite, it just means you have to add another facet to your strategy and army building as a defender.

 

 

Let's start at the beginning. First you don't know if you are going to be going against a lot of cavalry and you really can't plan for everything. Small point but need to be said.

 

Second, true the elves have good mages but any mage worth her salt is going to cost a couple of hundred points and their range doesn't even come close to the range of the archers.

 

Third, run away....on the table size we've been using....are you serious. A cavalry unit is going to have a base move of at least 10, higher in most cases throw in a double move to get across the field and the archers are lucky to get off their first volley before they have to engage in melee and with a Rav of 0 and a DV of 7 they don't stand a chance. Also, spreading out takes out one of the greatest advantages of the elves, their volley and agian with their superior movement the cavlary could get to individual archers and have them down before they could get away. Finally, moving takes away from the other important part of the 44 pt model, the extra ranged attacked. Why take the archer at 44 pts if you're not going to use their special abilities.

 

Fourth, LOS is an issue. Maybe not in melee, but when the cavalry can double move across the field of battle slipping from cover to cover, the archers don't stand a chance and the grunts will never be able to catch up to them to surround them before they get to the archers. The best move base move for an elf is 7 (archers and longthorns, that's not even enough to keep cavalary at a safe distance. Grunts move at 6 with a double move and a charge they can do a 14, enough to get them into b2b and killed if the cavalry gets to activate first.

[Qwyksilver]

Yeah, you're right. Cavalry will just kill everything I guess. Best not even try to beat them, just call em overpowering.

 

Volley is not all that impressive unless you;re facing large hoardes of low DV grunts like Goblins and Bondslaves, most of the time you;re better off taking those extra shots. One shot per model in the AOE is not nearly as effective most of the time as dropping 15-20 and targetting a smaller portion of models.

 

If you want to keep your archers stationary to get run down, you can't complain that Cavalry is better because you're neglecting to utilize your models to their full potential. You're focusing too much on special abilities which can be useful and effective, but only if you don't focus solely on them and limit yourself by them. Lack of flexibility leads to death.

 

If you;re worried about getting run down by a Cavalry model, sacrifice a grunt. They have to stop to either kill it or make a Discipline check to break b2b. If they fail, Shaken and -2 DV. Grunts die. Use them to slow up Cavalry while you fire into close combat.

 

And for not planning for every possibility, yeah, you're right. But if you make one trick pony armies, it becomes really predictable and easy to beat. If you build smart, you may not be able to wipe out any kind of army with ease, but you give yourself enough flexibility to stand a chance against most comers.

 

As far as not taking an archer for 44 points. Why not. Anyone playing you is going to completely expect an archer heavy army from an Elven player and plan their army accordingly.

 

Why would anyone ever want to use mages or clerics which can cast hold or slow, or just beat on the lower MD of Cavalry?

 

 

And sorry if I am coming off a little snarky. It's just frustrating hearing someone complaining because they think an entire army is now useless because of one type of model, and the only way to beat that model type is by getting one of your own. Give the folks that are designing the game a little credit that they know how to balance things out. And actually go and try to use a variety of tactics before saying nothing works.

[drjsallison]

Qwyk is so right it hurts. Plan to make your battle plans on the field and be versitile. Every model has a strong point and at least two weak points. Don't freak out about your foes strong points. Smile at him and exploit the weakness. Calvalry look tough on the surface, but They are no worse than any other adept. They are great for some things, but they are far from unbeatable.

[Darthiir]

Yeah, you're right. Cavalry will just kill everything I guess. Best not even try to beat them, just call em overpowering.

 

Volley is not all that impressive unless you;re facing large hoardes of low DV grunts like Goblins and Bondslaves, most of the time you;re better off taking those extra shots. One shot per model in the AOE is not nearly as effective most of the time as dropping 15-20 and targetting a smaller portion of models.

 

If you want to keep your archers stationary to get run down, you can't complain that Cavalry is better because you're neglecting to utilize your models to their full potential. You're focusing too much on special abilities which can be useful and effective, but only if you don't focus solely on them and limit yourself by them. Lack of flexibility leads to death.

 

If you;re worried about getting run down by a Cavalry model, sacrifice a grunt. They have to stop to either kill it or make a Discipline check to break b2b. If they fail, Shaken and -2 DV. Grunts die. Use them to slow up Cavalry while you fire into close combat.

 

And for not planning for every possibility, yeah, you're right. But if you make one trick pony armies, it becomes really predictable and easy to beat. If you build smart, you may not be able to wipe out any kind of army with ease, but you give yourself enough flexibility to stand a chance against most comers.

 

As far as not taking an archer for 44 points. Why not. Anyone playing you is going to completely expect an archer heavy army from an Elven player and plan their army accordingly.

 

Why would anyone ever want to use mages or clerics which can cast hold or slow, or just beat on the lower MD of Cavalry?

 

 

And sorry if I am coming off a little snarky. It's just frustrating hearing someone complaining because they think an entire army is now useless because of one type of model, and the only way to beat that model type is by getting one of your own. Give the folks that are designing the game a little credit that they know how to balance things out. And actually go and try to use a variety of tactics before saying nothing works.

 

I didn't say it was overpowering, I just said that I didn't like it. The volley isn't designed to take out lots of models, at least not how I use it. Volley is for getting that mage or cleric who is hiding behind all those grunts with deflect.

 

It's not lack of flexibility, it's fact. The archers, no matter how fast they run away, will be caught....when you can only move 7 and the cavalry can double move and charge 26 where are you going to run to....and how can you sacrafice a grunt, he can't even catch up to them. Yes, I tried the scrafice a grunt thing and it didn't work to well. Mages and clerics, again, don't have the range to stop the cavalry charge...slow only affects one model and hold has an 18 inch range.

 

Build one trick ponies, build smart....boy aren't you full of yourself, oh wait I forgot you have over 4,000 posts so you know what's the best build for everything. If people can't state their ideas without getting taken apart by know-it-alls then what's the point of the forum. Shut up offer something useful, and back it up.

 

I do try different things, when the elves were taken down I didn't throw a fit and say I was never playing agian. I went home and put together a different type of force and will try it next time.

 

and i don't apologize for sounding snarky...because honestly, if you throw it out expect it back.

[mooseyjoe]

wooowy!!!

 

 

aren't we a bunch of little pms princesses!!!! There is no need to argue here. You are both right. Cavalry is possible to beat, even with the elves. Cavalry is hard to beat, especially with elves.

 

the elves are very archer strong, but weak against cavalry. Cavalry based armies will most likey be very cavalry strong, but weak against hordes of grunts. etc.

 

 

 

 

as for being new to the boards, that's tough too. My first thread was aimed at getting rid of my "noobie" status. I started a thread and replied to it about 15 times. The whole board (except for digitalmat, thanks for being understanding man) got mad at me for a little while there. it came out alright in the end though. For the most part I feel pretty well loved blah blah blah blah blah blah itslateandImstartingtoramble.

 

Darthiir- Listen to qwyc, he is usually right.

 

Qwyc- Don't be "snarky", folks can get touchy

 

 

 

now everyone play nice please.

 

And I am sorry for calling you two pms princesses. It is ALWAYS good to apologize.

 

 

 

 

Edit: thought I'd add my little jewel of tactical advice. The deathriders make me fear for the life of my totem of battle. That guarunteed flanking move is very dangerous to my clerics, wizards, and totem.

 

another thing to try with the elves is the run and stop. When using grunts to slow your opponent don't attack him. Just get into b2b and stop. This way he has to use an activation to attack you because he didn't have the oppurtunity to kill any of those panzy warriors with wack-backs.

[Qwyksilver]

Hey MJ, no harm no foul here.

 

And, I do make mistakes at times too, in fact I've made some glorious ones in the past. Thanks though for the vote of confidence MJ.

[Qwyksilver]

If people can't state their ideas without getting taken apart by know-it-alls then what's the point of the forum. Shut up offer something useful, and back it up.

 

I'd be more than happy to discuss other people's ideas if they were actually presented. You'll find I am more than willing to discuss tactics with most anyone, anytime. So far, I have yet to see other's thoughts on beating Cavalry models. Just my own being taken apart without a lot of back up. So please, offer some constructive thoughts on defeating Cavalry. I'd be interested in seeing it. If you don't, then I'm not going to continue in this discussion because it's already starting to degenerate and it's not what this board is about.

 

Just some more food for thought for folks regarding Cavalry based model movement. Terrain hampers their movement far worse than other model types. Check out the chart on page 59 in your Core Rulebook.

[Darthiir]

If people can't state their ideas without getting taken apart by know-it-alls then what's the point of the forum. Shut up offer something useful, and back it up.

 

I'd be more than happy to discuss other people's ideas if they were actually presented. You'll find I am more than willing to discuss tactics with most anyone, anytime. So far, I have yet to see other's thoughts on beating Cavalry models. Just my own being taken apart without a lot of back up. So please, offer some constructive thoughts on defeating Cavalry. I'd be interested in seeing it. If you don't, then I'm not going to continue in this discussion because it's already starting to degenerate and it's not what this board is about.

 

Just some more food for thought for folks regarding Cavalry based model movement. Terrain hampers their movement far worse than other model types. Check out the chart on page 59 in your Core Rulebook.

 

Unfortunately, I don't know much about cavalry and therefore can't offer up anything, yet. I can just point out the weaknesses in my own army. I will be trying new stuff against them, at least new to me....

 

Good chart and most cavarly are hampered by terrain, except studpid deathriders (damn ghosts and in incorporeal state).

 

And I will apologize for last night, it was late and I probably said many things I shouldn't have.

[Qwyksilver]

Not a problem here. It's all good.

It's Sunday, football's on. Everything is back and right with the world.

 

 

 

See, that's the thing, and it's a comment I've frequently heard from Elven army players when their Ranged attacks are somehow reduced...those are not necessarily weaknesses, elves are not just about archery. Their weakness are not enough of one to be crippling else it would be a very poorly designed and planned army, which I don't think Matt and his crew would do. Goldeneagle has posted a number of examples of effective close combat uses for Elven armies.

 

Sure, Cavalry models can move faster, but they will still need at least two turns to engage your archers. Keep some melee warriors nearby and charge them into b2b before the Cavalry can engage your archers. If they can't reach, make a wall of them with thin ribbons of openings so the cavalry troops can't move through but Sure Shot is still effective.

 

Use a mage to Firestorm or Fireball an oncoming cavalry advancement. Deathriders on their second DT suck. Even with their improved Deflect they are not too tough to hit. Use your archers after the fact.

 

With a 6 inch movement and an 18 inch range, plus a 2 inch radius, you can get the cavalry before they are in double move distance or at least make it VERY close. Spend 15 points and give a model Musician too. That extra inch can be VERY helpful.

 

Cavalry models are larger than standard, so you can completely mob and cover EVERY inch of cavalry base, and still have LOS to the cavalry models. Tie em up, beat em up a little, then fill them full of holes.

 

While elven warriors are clearly one of the weaker melee models in the game, they are not useless. Even if they serve as a speed bump, forcing Cavalry models to make discipline checks, or waste an attack action to kill the melee grunts gives you more chances to try and hit with your archers. Just be mindful of the other advancing troops. That's how I was able to cream my last opponent using the Deathriders. He focused so much on the one troop of Deathriders, my troops of Xbow, and my troop of warriors marched up over 3 turns completely unmolested. You have a better chance using support bonuses and trying to attack on rear base sides of Cavalry models than you do of hitting with ranged attacks. I've seen Cavalry troops absolutely annihilated because they cannot make Defender adjusts because of the shape of the base in a tight formation because to do so, would break existing b2b contacts with enemy models, which means if it's a tight formation, the 2nd model in will be on a rear base side. Put a Deathseeker there. 2 attacks with all that support will add up quick, and will likely kill or at least seriously wound the cavalry and negate a lot of their advantages.

 

Cavalry will definitely be tough to beat with an elven army because they are range focused, but it is not impossible. That's been the whole point of my posts.

[drjsallison]

Now that we are back on topic, I will happily give Lord Abbot's Calvalry 101.

 

Calvalry is a great thing but have more than enough weaknesses that can be exploited if a calvalry commander is not careful. We can look at this topic from both sides of the battle field.

 

Calvalry is the ultimate answer to crossing an open field and evading a deadly volley. The Calvalry SA offers extra protection(like a double deflect) making them even harder for archers to take down. The mounted SA gives a +2 charge bonus making the effective attack range 13-16". A pretty fearsome range. An advantage of mounted solos like the Onyx Chevy and Valdrian the Vampire are that they are great for plowing the road ahead of an adept calvalry charge. With blockers out of the way, the carlvalry can charge in for a kill or eat up an impressive 18-24". Aside from their impressive movement, they can be pretty effective at pushing around models on the battlefield. With decent MAV and DV, they can hold their own in melee unless the opponant has the Piker SA. If the calvalry can get to the backfield to take on archers and spellcasters, the enemy could be facing a world of hurt.

 

For all the great benifits, caqlvalry can be soundly beaten by a good tactitian. Taking the complaint about the elves vs. calvalry, there are several things the elves can do to fend off the charge. One thing that all elves have that will bog down calvalry if their ranger ability. They can move 12" (double move) through even light woods and rough terrain that bogs the fastest calvalry down by one move point per inch. Deathriders, being non-corpreal, don't have to worry about terrain modifiers so if elves are against spectral calvalry, a better potion is to scatter and force the calvalry to give chase to only half of the squad. Forget volley and use the Marksman ability to take extra shots at the mounted spooks. Calvalry takes up 2 slots in an army so there will often be half as many mounted enemies to defenders. 4 or more shots to each horseman is scary no matter who you are. In the case of foot soldiers, there is the advantage of the swarm. WHere on regular models, there is a +2 limit to support (+1 for each model in front side contact) this is doubled vs. calvalry with a mob of 5 models in front side contact. (even a 0 MAV archer can have a 4 in this situation- not to shabby). If archers are not a factor, a formation of soldiers can stall calvalry for a turn and then catch them in a muti-sided swarm.

 

There are no perfect stratagies and I know that sometimes some of the above strats don't present themselves as I presented them. Be clever and think on your feet. Remember that to solve something, you don't focus on the problem, you look for a solution. Every model has a strong point and a weakness. Use what you have to the best of your ability and just stay a step ahead of your opponent. Trial by fire and casualties in battle are the nature of the beast. Just be the one left standing at the end and you win.

 

Thats my $1.50 on the subject. Hope it helps on bot sides.

[sldrdude]

Here is another possible strategy for you to consider.

 

One way to come out ahead in a fight is to control the fight. If you can eliminate one of the cavalry's strengths are are halfway to coming out the better.

 

drjsallison has already mentioned using terrain to slow down the cav charge. This is important. Use it.

 

Using your grunts to tie up the cav is equally important. Your opponent, if he/she using cav right, will be looking for this and will be more-shall we say--conservative in sticking them out there.

 

Consider this. Start of the game. Your opponent goes. He double moves his cav (as Qwk did) across the field. You go. Don't shoot at them for heavens sake! Double move/charge your grunts to stop the cav moment. Tie them up but don't expect to attack before they do. Expect casulties. When the cav unit is suffiently tied up you can them use those archer resources to either expedite the cav destruction or start a fight elsewhere on the board. As a norm, grunts can win the war of attrition vs cav. Have clerics handy to bandage fallen warriors.

 

Even if Elfs got cav this would still be a viable tactic.

 

Do this once and a smart opponent will forgoe the "charge straight across" if there is the possibility of getting caught again. They will adapt, as you must.

 

drjsallison is absolutely correct about the no correct tactic. Everything is situational, but there is almost SOMETHING you can do against a unit or other tactic. Stay one move ahead. Deny your opponent options. Options can win the game.

[Darthiir]

Calvalry takes up 2 slots in an army so there will often be half as many mounted enemies to defenders.

 

 

Does this mean that a leader say with 10/0 could only have a max of 5 cavalry?

[Froggy the Great]

A leader with 2-10/0 could have himself and four other cavalry.