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mooseyjoe

I hate to do this,

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Let me start by saying that i love reaper and warlord. :wub::wub::wub:

 

They are the best company I have yet found and their game is the most fun.

 

 

This having been said, I got a complaint to voice.

 

 

What is up with the rule-book problems? The first rulebook had to be reprinted (granted this wasn't because of problems, but because it is a kick-butt game) and it was drastically changed. The second printing comes out with the changes in it and it looks like everything is going to be OK. Then reaper starts issueing changes and clarifications to this rulebook as well. Now the faction books are coming and you would expect these to be free of problem, but that seems to be too much to hope for. There is a ton of confusion about named weapons and apparently some stuff was listed improperly etc. etc. etc. (you can see it here)

 

This comes on top of the poorly organized nature of the rule-book to begin with. It is almost impossible to find a rule when you really need to without sitting down and searching for fifteen minutes. That is if the rule is even in the book and not in some online errata. The rulebook feels like it was written by people who love the game and already know the rules (thus they wouldn't need a rulebook) instead of people who actually write rules.

 

 

 

Many of the little problems (putting stuff in wrong category etc.) could be fixed by a more strict editing process. Many of the larger ones (everything calling for a multi-page clarification) would require more work.

 

 

I personally wouldn't mind waiting longer for ruleboooks if it meant that they would be real quality stuff, and not require me to go back with some white-out and a pen so that they will be completely correct.

 

Consider this a formal request for a redone corebook and an elimination of problems in future rulebooks.

 

 

Thanks for your time

 

-Joe

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Consider this a formal request for a redone corebook and an elimination of problems in future rulebooks.

 

 

Thanks for your time

 

-Joe

im sure Reaper would love to put out material free of error too. the truth about it is though is that no company does or will ever be able to put out a rulebook without some sort of errata or clarification needed. the playtesters and proof readers are a small percentage of how many people buy these, there is no way that they can think up and notice every single little loophole out there.

now true, some mistakes seem glaring but until someone can invent the proofreadatron 2000 this is the just the nature of the beast.

reaper often says it, feel free to point out mistakes to them and lets not forget that what's perfect in your eyes may or may not be perfect in the eyes of the masses.

either way i think the folk at reaper do an outstanding job of listening to their players and actually answering questions and problems. we may not always like it but they're there for us.

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don't get me wrong, reaper does a great job fixing problems once they are there, they just don't seem to do a great job of avoiding them in the first place.

 

 

and as far as proof reading goes, I don't mind spellling errors and what not, but when you misprint a rule that will potentially change the game, there is a problem.

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don't get me wrong, reaper does a great job fixing problems once they are there, they just don't seem to do a great job of avoiding them in the first place.

 

I wish I could disagree with you

 

Alls I can offer is that we alway attempt to improve.

 

Thanks for sticking with us through thick and thin

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Moosey, let me make my humble attempt to help you out with the whole "finding a rule when you need it" thing. I took my 1st printing rule book and literally took it apart. I cut out the strings holding the binding together. Then I used a pair of scissors and cut the pages apart. I went to K-mart and got a nice three ring binder, binder tabs, and sleeves that can hold the pages in the binder. Then I went through and tabbed the whole book. It makes it really quick to find a rule, spells, items, a particular army, etc. The whole process took me around four hours. I did it while watching one of the extended Lord of the Rings movies. ::D:

 

Wild Bill :blues:

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Another comment - I test software for a living, and I've also done a lot of game playtesting. In both of those, there is just one hard and fast rule - You will never be able to find or account for all the things that could go wrong before the customer does.

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I have to admit a different experience with Reaper rules. While there have been problems, most have been play balance or minor tweaks.

 

Anyone remember the last edition of Star Fleet Battles, where the Errata book would be thicker than all the Warlord books put together?

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Another comment - I test software for a living, and I've also done a lot of game playtesting. In both of those, there is just one hard and fast rule - You will never be able to find or account for all the things that could go wrong before the customer does.

 

Amen, say we.

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I believe that one of the problems lies in the fact that the editors are also involved in the development and in the playtesting.

 

An external editor (one who is fluent in the rules, and can be trusted to stick to the NDA) is the best solution to this.

 

Additionally, they could allow playtester review of final changes (between final playtest and print) and just accept the extra week or so of delay.

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Another comment - I test software for a living, and I've also done a lot of game playtesting. In both of those, there is just one hard and fast rule - You will never be able to find or account for all the things that could go wrong before the customer does.

As a software programmer, I couldn't agree more. A miniature game is no less complicated than a sophisticated relational database program. Programs have bugs, and patches, miniature games have errata and clarifications. If we had infinate time and resources to develop (whether it be a program or game), we could probably make it perfect. Alas, life is far from infinate. And the tolerance of the gamer community to wait for a delay in relase is shorter than that of the attention span of a knat.

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Like they say , Life is a journey not a destination , its the process of getting there along the way that counts ! :devil: Besides , I quite enjoy all the discussions and what not that goes on ! ::D: Pobodies nerfect ! :devil::lol::lol:

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As a software programmer, I couldn't agree more. A miniature game is no less complicated than a sophisticated relational database program. Programs have bugs, and patches, miniature games have errata and clarifications.

 

problem is, when I activate most of my computer programs they automatically update themselves. Everyone else's programs update in a similar manner. Not only this, but the update is seamless. There is no righting in an update with pen. Everyone else also has the update. This is not so with a miniatures game. Only a fraction of the population gets all the updates, the rest only have a fraction of whats needed.

 

 

 

The Binder idea sounds like it would work, but should I really pay 25 dollars for a rulebook that I am going to have to cut apart, reorganize, and then put tabs in, all over a 4 hour period? Assume my time is woth ten dollars an hour, this means I would be the proud owner of a 65 dollar rulebook, which would still need a bunch of updates so that it was absolutely correct.

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry to be the complainer, but I am just disapointed with the way these books have been done.

 

 

 

The outside editor sounds great. would probably fix alot of their problems.

 

I too enjoy the discussions, I just don't enjoy telling people "No really, that is what the erratta says. You can't do that. The rules say so. No no no, its not in the rulebook, its online. just go get an account and check the website once a week and you might catch all of it."

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The Binder idea sounds like it would work, but should I really pay 25 dollars for a rulebook that I am going to have to cut apart, reorganize, and then put tabs in, all over a 4 hour period? Assume my time is woth ten dollars an hour, this means I would be the proud owner of a 65 dollar rulebook, which would still need a bunch of updates so that it was absolutely correct.

 

I'm sorry to be the complainer, but I am just disapointed with the way these books have been done.

 

No offense meant, but if you think the Warlord rulebooks are poor in the editing, and in the way they were put together you don't have alot of experience dealing with various gaming companies and their products. The Warlord products leave alot to be desired I admit, I too really dislike the way the main rulebook is put together (The faction books, despite alot of typos arn't nearly as bad), and I very much agree the rules section is very unintuitive and hard to navigate; but Reaper is putting out products that are fairly par for the course in the gaming industry, particularly with respect to erratta. At least Reaper is addressing these issues, and while you might not get an auto-update to your book, their are free downloads, and tons of customer support for you to access (believe me, this is not the case with alot of games).

 

I know you want a near perfect product, and I do too, but the reality of the situation is when you are dealing with small print runs (and games like this are sold in fairly low numbers in comparison to most other types of books) it is far more difficult to spend tons of time and money editing. Most gaming companies (with the exception of a few really big ones) are running on a pretty tight budget, and editing seems to be something that is often comprimised for the sake of money, and results in most of the editing being done internally. Like others have said this isn't always the best choice, I can't count the number of times glaring grammatical errors were picked up by peer editors when I was writing papers for University, despite I myself having read them over a half dozen times. Your mind tends to play tricks on you when you're editing your own work, and it fills in blanks and corrects errors you see on the paper without you noticing it doing so.

 

Anyway, I do agree with you in principle, but the reality of the situation is that Reaper is putting out far better quality products (in terms of composition, and editing) than alot of other companies, so all we can do is make them aware of the errors and hope they correct them in future printings, and incorporate ideas on how we the fans think the books should be put together in the future.

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