Erion Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 In the light of what else is currently out there I find the justification of outrageous pricing by saying it's ok if it's coming from GW to be more than a little silly. I won't argue the point that Space Hulk is a fine gateway drug for 40k. But this whole notion that it will somewhow be only a limited edition is just silly. In my time buying from GW, no "Limited edition" figure has ever only been available in its originally announced Limited Venue. 3rd edition Boxed set with Limited edition Black Templars Captain -- Captain shows up as a Games Day Mini a few years later. Limited edition Tau Fire Warrior from when the Tau were released -- Shows up for sale at games day next year. Limited Editon Elf Captain you could get by redeeming Warcry CCG packs -- I got three at games day the next year. And that's just to name a few. I simply don't buy that they won't be making Space Hulk ever again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyrmgear Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 Just a question, I see a lot of folks that don't like GW pricing (and I would be lying if I said I didn't want their stuff to be cheaper), but it is based on British pricing and the American dollar is not exactly strong. I look at Forge World models at 40 GBP and think, I would totally pay 40 bucks for that.. but wait, that's about $65 American- so no, can't get it this month. Thankfully, I can see that it is a economics issue and not a specialist-product-manufacturer-selling-niche-products trying to gouge me. So, what am I missing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erion Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 If GW pricing was based on a currency exchange rate, then the squad boxes which cost $35 last summer when then conversion was closer to 2:1 should now cost about $29. But They don't. Forge world is a different story, because I can get their stuff at the current exchange rates. Not too long ago it was actually cheaper to get Forge World Boradsides for my Tau than to buy the GW models off the shelf. It's not an economics issue. GW has always made a habit of pricing their indvidual models on a perceived in-game value. That's why a box of five terminators is 42% more expensive than a box of ten power armored tactical marines consisting of roughly the same amount of raw material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heisler Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 I think part of it is the desparity between similar items that are produced by other manufacturers. For example the Perry Brothers and Victrix both have released plastic 28mm miniatures for Napoleonics and ACW (Perry Brothers). You are getting 40-50 miniatures for about $30 a box. You are seeing the same kind of pricing from Wargames Factory and Warlord Games for 28mm Ancients (Romans and Gauls and the lines are expanding quickly). The quality on all of these is pretty high definitely equal to and in some cases better than GW (the Perry stuff is awesome). So much much smaller companies are coming out with 28mm plastic miniatures usually for less than $1, shouldn't GW be able to do that as well? Why are we not receiving the economies of scale that GW should be able to take advantage of that, apparently, these smaller companies are managing to pull off. I think if you are looking at metal pricing things are all over the place. Yet there are a significant number of companies, all of them smaller than GW, that manage to produce 28mm pewter for less than GW. I'm sorry I don't buy into the its a character or a rare unit concept so they don't sell as many of those to justify the price they are charging. It doesn't take that many miniatures to pay back on your cost to produce them (yes, and I do understand that there is a sculptor to pay and master molds to be created before you even get to the production mold, on the other hand I know that the mold blanks for peweter miniatures only cost about $20 so they aren't that expensive) even if they are characters or rare units. So that's my take on why people get upset with GW pricing. Forgeworld is a different story and I think you are paying for quality control there. I think its still to expensive for what you get, but if you make a bad pour with resin you can't just melt it back down and try again. I think Forgeworld needs to seriously look at how they are creating their molds and why they have those problems. Other companies that use resin exclusively don't seem to need to charge Forgeworld style prices to stay in business. Forgeworld charges what the market will bear though and apparently 40K players have pretty deep pockets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOldcorn Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 It is simple GW charge what the market is willing to bear. If you want to play in a GW store or tourney you have to use their models. The perrys on the other hand are selling to people who can purchase any model from any source and take part in a tourney. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyrmgear Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 I dig, I'm afraid I was taking a pretty narrow view of the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Porsenna Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 Also consider Perry minis are historicals, and thus are selling in a HIGHLY COMPETATIVE MARKET. Historicals, since the internet came about, is about as close to pure competition I think you'll ever see. Thus they must charge lower prices in a choice-rich market in order to compete. OTOH the fantasy/SF market is much less competaitive, with a handful of really big producers, and a few other smaller producers. So GW charges what people will pay for their product. Damon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOldcorn Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 As said the GW Scout speeder has dragged me into painting some GW, well that is finished and I have started some scout bikes in the same scheme. Here are the results so far. Bike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erion Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 GW is still in a competitive market. They just aren't competing for a share of the "Space Marine" market (which they have certainly cornered [;)] ). But they do have to compete with an increasing field of high-quality non-historical miniature battle games. They are getting an ever-decreasing portion of my personal budget for gaming. This is mostly because they keep re-hashing armies instead of offering anything new and exciting. I was excited when War of the Ring hit this spring, because it finally offered a way to play the truly epic battles from the Lord of the Rings, but the number of people in the area that have any interest in the game or models includes exactly me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Porsenna Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 I never said they weren't in a competative market. The SF/Fantasy market is more monopolistically competiative, in which the products are differentiated, but not at a gross level. They are not then perfectly substitute products. While Warmachine and GW both produce fantasy figures, they are not substitutes because a) one can buy and enjoy both, or (in my case) b) the figures are differentiated enough that as a consumer I can never consider a "Warjack" to be a substitute for a "Dreadnaught." Damon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertsjf Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 The SF/Fantasy market is more monopolistically competiative, in which the products are differentiated, but not at a gross level. I agree but would use the word "proprietary" instead of monopolistic. It's semantics but monopolistic indicates that there is no one but GW. There are plenty of other companies, but folks might not like their flavor. As opposed to, say 15mm WWII, where there are dozens of manufacturers for the exact same mini (like a panzer II j, for example). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Porsenna Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 "Monopolistic Competition" is an economic term, and the "Monopolistic" portion of things has nothing to do with the traditional "Monopoly" definition. See here for an academic explanation. Also Wikipedia has an easier to understand definition here. Damon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erion Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 What I'm trying to say is that GW seems to think they're above the fray of the hobby gaming market, and they continue to price their products according to that beliefe. Meanwhile, more and more companies are stepping into the marketplace to compete for the finite supply of gaming dollars. GW is certainly the biggest player and has been for a long time, but that doesn't keep the up-and-comers from nipping away at their market share. And no way is GW as nimble as they'll need to be when the top echelon of their managment finally realizes what's going on. And proprietary is a much better term for what's going on in the Fantasy/Sci Fi hobby game market. Nobody can compete with GW when selling Space Marines or Eldar or Tau (because nobody else can sell those specific models without a huge lawsuit). But there are plenty of contenders with their own proprietary forces, be they Pan-Oceania or Viridians or whatever, who are taking individually small bites out of GW's pie that are starting to add up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kristof65 Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 GW is certainly the biggest player and has been for a long time, but that doesn't keep the up-and-comers from nipping away at their market share. And no way is GW as nimble as they'll need to be when the top echelon of their managment finally realizes what's going on. <snip> But there are plenty of contenders with their own proprietary forces, be they Pan-Oceania or Viridians or whatever, who are taking individually small bites out of GW's pie that are starting to add up. I'm fully of the beleif that once one of the other major players releases an OGL minis game system that translates well to WFB and 40k and catches on, GW is going to see a major hit to their pocket book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Porsenna Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 I'm fully of the beleif that once one of the other major players releases an OGL minis game system that translates well to WFB and 40k and catches on, GW is going to see a major hit to their pocket book. Are you saying those people will convert their GW minis over, or they'll not buy GW product period? There already are a few games on the market that offer conversion. From 40k I've seen conversions for games like 5150 as well as a few others. However, if people flock to the OGL game, and convert their GW minis for this game, it will not affect GW IMHO, other than perhaps a drop in sales in rules. Instead, it might drive further minis sales as people feel less "locked" into the GW game and setting, and more apt to convert. That being said, GW offers a "whole package" where you can get minis, rules, paints, scenery, etc. that you can't get with and OGL conversion. While it might be possible for a manufacturer to use OGL to step up, it would take quite a bit of effort to get to that level, with its own retail presence (more important in the UK than the US), paints, books, novels, figures, scenery, accessories, etc. Plus even if GW were to fail, the IP is too valiable to let it expire. Someone will pick it up, etc. Damon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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