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Resisting the Siren's song


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There are a couple of differences between GW and other companies, though. First, GW is the big boy on the block, so it's naturally going to have more people pointing out it's flaws. Second, and IMO, more telling, is that a lot of the anti-GW crowd (myself included) started out as fairly loyal WFB/WH40k fans, and wound up feeling scammed, cheated, betrayed or something similar by GW.


In a lot of ways, GW is like that ex-girl/boyfriend that was always pulling crap on you during your relationship, and it's hard to keep your mouth shut about their bad behaviour when you see them cozying up to your friends.

I'll second these notions, in fact I had a constructive discussion with a game store owner yesterday about this.


As far as the background of WHF and 40k, regardless of how derivitive they may be, I like the grittiness. In a world where Disney defined "fantasy" for a lot of people, it's refreshing to see worlds where the princesses don't always get saved by some pretty-boy prince in shining armor and riding a gleaming white steed. GW understands that without terrible villains, there would be no need for heroes. In fact, their villains are the highlights of their games.


As far as GW the company, I have a few issues and have been willing to throw out the conspiracy theories. To anyone who has played WHF, did you ever notice how much better High Elf Swordmasters got from the 6th Ed HE book to the 7th Ed HE book? It was quite a leap and bound. True, they were vulnerable as always to missile fire, but anything that got into melee with them got sliced, diced, and pureed. Anyhow, I'd be really curious as to the sales figures for the last five years on Swordmasters; my guess is that Swordmaster sales saw an impressive spike somewhere after the release of the 7th Ed army book.


Which would be fine and good if a 20-man block of Swordmasters was currently a viable option. Now they pretty well need 30-40 man blocks with the changes to WHF 8th Ed. Eight editions alone is an interesting debate. Was the game really so broke that you needed to do a drastically different edition. I came in 6th ed, so I sort of missed out on the mythical days of "Herohammer", but 6th ed was solid. Then they went to 7th ed, which was really more like 6.1.0 ed. It took out a few things here, revamped a few things there, and aside from the nasty Miscast table and spanking new spell lists, was not much of a change. Well, 8th ed turned that on its head. It's almost "Anti-Herohammer" with HUGE blocks of infantry (more models to BUY and paint) and at 2000 pts you don't get to use your awesome fully upped Lord of Change.


Don't even get me started on what they did to Chaos overall the last two years. I'm still bitter furious.

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Just to reiterate, I don't hate GW now that I don't buy their stuff or play their games. I do remember a lot of pretty exploitative BS back when I did. I've even considered putting together 40K armies, but... well, it's just not worth it. If you're paying the kind of prices GW puts on their metals for models you might need 20 or more of for a decent game, you're a sucker, plain and simple.


Unless you're doing it on eBay, or like a mate of mine does, giving a good home to the models discarded by everyone he meets who got ****ed off with GW or don't have the time or money anymore. He's got thousands of 28mm figs that way. Hell, he recently scored some at a great price off me.


There's "generic" rules aplenty if you've got some buddies who want to game but don't want to be railroaded, Defiance: Vital Ground is one, the excellent one-page (!) rules "FUBAR" are another if simplicity is your thing. There's Song of Blades and Heroes which I hate but many love to death, or ARES, or WARengine.


The one game I "owe" GW for is Space Crusade. I have gotten an awful lot of fun out of that game over the years, although, now I think of it, it was a Milton Bradley game with GW IP or something odd like that.

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It's threads like this that I wonder why I even bother, and helps serve my continuing feelings of alienization. What started as a conversation on the merits (or lack thereof of the 40K movie) quickly devolves into passive-aggressive swipes at Warhammer gamers (sorry SR, maybe you didn't intend it that way, but IMHO that's how it comes across). It also proves my point that one cannot have a conversation about GW properties on an open, general forum without being told how your gaming choices suck. So unfortunately I'm done here.



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What is the "Litany of Hate" that's recited by the SM?
Main battle cry / saying I know is




So how is the new Tyranid codex?


I like the looks of the venomthrope.

Yes, lots of fun in the new codex. Though not all models are out yet, so that is either a hindrance or a boon depending on ones kit bashing skill.


There is a good deal of big critters, Trygon, Trygon prime, Mawloc, Tervigon, Tyrannofex and the Harpy for those who like giant monsters.


The elite selections seem to be varied, but some internet chatter seems to say it is where one would be better off take ranged anti tank choices from. The venomthrope does sound very useful for those with lots of gaunt/gants since it grants nids within 6" some nice protective abilities. [Def gren. , 5+ cover save, assaulters eat a dangerous terrain test].


Sadly it seems like there has been a loss of customization options for the hoards. Genestealers have noticeably fewer options, with some of those options being melded into the elite Ymgarl Genestealers who shift between 3 'modes' like WFB Dryads. But Broodlords are now an upgrade to a single genestealer per unit so every brood can have its own broodlord.


Two HQ choices can spawn units. Parasite of Mortex works well with and spawns ripper swarms and spawns them from kills. The enormous Tervigons just poop out about 10.5 tervagants per round, running out randomly. Tervigons can even fit their bloated abdomens into one's Troops selection, one per troop of termagants, so an army could have 5 of these cranking out more nids.


Right now I have a Proxy army of Nids I play against a friend. Have come actual 'stealers and 'gaunts I'm working on.


Hive tyrant: Horrorclix Alien Queen

Flyrant: "Destroyah" Gojira High Grade Series figure until I assemble my Starship troopers overseerer bug

Trygon / Trygon Prime: Zerg Hydrolisk toy {might get some of the model kit if i want more]

Mawloc: DDM Purple worm [ Might be making an enormous (3" thick) worm or two from hotglue and pipecleaners with some nid bits ]

Carnifex: Two Star wars minis Acklay and a "Larva Destroyah" Gojira High Grade Series figure.

Warriors: Kruthik hive lords and Heroclix Mutations and Monsters "Brood". Have a couple official models, mostly ugly old ones.

Hive guard: DDM anhkheg once i assemble them giant guns from hotglue, straws and toothpicks.

Tyrant guard: DDM anhkheg

Hormagaunts: DDM Kruthik adults and a few official models.

Zoanthrope / Doom: Heads from alien toys

Termagants; SWM Yuuzhan Vong until i get the official models assembled.

Gargoyles: Star wars Shyracks

Tervigon: Ohm 1/20th model from Nausicaa:VotW {click to see manufacturer's paintjob]

Ravener: Mageknight Thorncrawler and similar worms.

Biovore: DDM Cerebrilith with some modifications planned.

Ripper swarm: Genestealer infection markers until something better comes along.

Parasite Of Mortex: Mage knight "Grappler" with clear plastic wings

Lictor: DDM Chuul

genestealers: SWM Gundark and DDM Abyssal Ravagers until my Space Hulk genestealers are assembled

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Yeah I was feeling a bit pugnacious. The passive aggressive is an amalgam of being ticked off by GW but genuinely seeing how a person could enjoy the games, miniatures, etc. GW has the odd honour of getting me into miniatures and subsequently pretty much getting me right back out again. Companies like Reaper got me back in on my own terms, so there's a happy ending there!


I got started 'cause someone said they couldn't see any problems and people who use GW models should play GW games, which irritated me. Sometimes gamers can be a bit blind to the rest of the culture. Me, if I had to buy GW and at regular retail, I couldn't have afforded to play or collect for 10 out of the last 15 years.


I should say that I really do think that SOME of their pricing is crazy and I don't know how people can pay it BUT they also do some very fine work, and business is business- they don't turn a profit, they die. I can say that while 40K doesn't float my boat game-wise I can see it being fun, and relatively easy to get pick-up games. The fluff is not my cup of tea - actually I hate it - but it does a good job of creating a (very visually unique) universe for wargaming... after all, there is only war, right? You can see from all this that I'm split right down the middle. On the one hand, I think GW actually deserve their success, but on the other they get my nose well out of joint.


Seriously, pretty much anyone on this board or IRL I would happily play 40K with if that was what they were up for. Sadly, the woofy* tone is not an artifact of the internet age, I really am that bad pretty much all the time.


So, Lars, in short, if you lived round here I'd invite you around to play 40K and drink beer, provided you could put up with my smart mouth.


By the way, first post was this:


"So Games Workshop is the Evil Empire, their prices are ridiculous, I don't like the fluff, blah, blah.


But that piranha seems reasonably priced.


And the space pope is too goofy not to love, same with the vespid and vostroyans.


And those new stealth suits look cool..."


so my ambivalence towards GW is on-topic. If it were just an "I love GW" thread I would stay right out of it, because those threads do attract way too much sneering and preening.


* specifically, the woof of the female canis familiaris. We may speak of the ewe, of the cow, and of the hen, but of the counterpart of the dog we must not speak.

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I don't really hate GW. I've just lost interest. I have lots of happy memories playing GW games, but as soon as I became aware of other miniature manufacturers and game systems the GW stuff just didn't seem all that attractive anymore. Getting kids and no longer having the time and money to invest in collecting and painting the models, let alone play the absurdly long gaming sessions also played a big part. Getting burned? Sure it sucks when half your WHFB 3rd edition units are no longer playable, but that's not even the primary reason I stopped being a GW customer. People may complain about frequent editions, but it needs to be compared not to an ideal world but to real alternatives, and frankly frequent editions is a far better option than seeing "support" dry out for your favorite game.


For me it all boils down to this. For the same investment in time and money I can do something that is more enjoyable to me. If others prefer GW then that's great for them, but I'm not obligated to agree that GW's stuff is great relative to the alternatives. I can accept and be happy that others can find enjoyment from something I find inferior in almost every respect.

Edited by vejlin
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As I think I said previously - I don't particularly like the GW game engine - I think there are some much better games out there. And, IMO, some of the models are exaggerated to the point of outright absurdity. But, for the moment, GW is the default state of gaming - I can take an army to a lot of game stores and probably find a game. That's not always the case. So, I have armies for WFB and for 40k.


But that doesn't stop me from having armies for Warmachine/Hordes, Flames of War, Wargods of Aegyptus, Warlord, etc. I just accept that some of those games will only get played at cons.

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The passive aggressive is an amalgam of being ticked off by GW but genuinely seeing how a person could enjoy the games, miniatures, etc. GW has the odd honour of getting me into miniatures and subsequently pretty much getting me right back out again. Companies like Reaper got me back in on my own terms, so there's a happy ending there!

That pretty much speaks for me, too.

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