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wildbill

Freelance Armies

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Changes for freelance armies:

Everything except Mercs and Grunts becomes Unique (Unique Adept means only 1 Model allowed).

All non-Merc Grunts become Adepts.

Problem solved.

 

Rich

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At this point I can still take a unit of Bull Orc Warriors, a unit of Reptus Warriors, and a unit of Dwarf Warriors. Are you saying that every one of these is exactly the same? I would beg to differ with you sir! ^_^

 

Maybe Freelance needs to become a Mercenary army where they are allowed to take 25% of their army as any other faction, say Crusaders. And maybe even allow the Change of Heart SA so long as Orba is taken as well.

 

I wish I had the answers. If I did, I'd be working for Reaper! :lol:

 

Wild Bill :blues:

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Leave Freelance alone.

 

I agree with Gimp. Solve range via terrain and other factors. The largest of which is a longer time limit to let melee occur and ruin the ranged benefits. Most ranged units die easily when engaged. The key is getting to them.

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And how, exactly, do you propose to enforce a set of rules governing terrain requirements in order to promote game balance?

 

The balance of game mechanics should not require something as ephemeral as the terrain that is placed on a board.

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Leave Freelance alone.

 

 

I second that. If you take out the freelance ability, then a vast part of the mercs might as well be taken as well.

Prophet

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Hmm, I'm rethinking my position.

 

Freelance ruins the flavor of Warlord.

Now I'm feeling:

Freelance offers different flavors to Warlord.

 

All Ranged Adept armies aside, freelance would be a fun sort of army to build. Pull a little here and there from various factions and put it all together.

 

I'm wondering about the problem of getting into melee with a shooty army. Let's use 5 as an average movement number. Figure you add musician, so that becomes 6. You can double move 12 inches. At Maximum, you'd need to do that three times, if your all ranged enemy was smart enough to back up their archer line as they were shooting at you. Add in the extra 2 inches of charge for the last move and you've definately got them.

 

How long are these games? 1 hour for a 1000 point game? If I were the hand to hand player going against a shooty army, you can bet your bottom dollar I'd be wasting absolutely no time at all advancing. I'd declare my actions, measure quick and move the minis up. 10 seconds, then flip the card and keep the game chugging. Unless your opponent is really underhanded and munchkinly, they'll be courteous and move quickly as well. I realize that's quite alot to be asking of human beings. Granted they've got to be making ranged combat actions as well as their "strategic withdrawal" to maintain the range distance as long as possible. But still. "volley attack by this troop." Then you point to a figure that's in the AOE, they roll off against it. dead or alive, next mini. Roll. etc. Goes pretty quick. You suffer your losses, and flip the next card.

 

I dunno, it seems to me that getting into melee wouldn't be the problem, at least not time-wise. I think the big problem would be getting into melee with enough figures to rip down the archers.

 

Most ranged models are adepts because Reaper acknowledges the prowess of ranged models in the RAGE system. RAGE is awesome because it allows you to defensive strike, and by and large with range you can avoid that dynamic, and on top of it you have a very long arm with range. It's just powerful, no doubt about it. So they make them adepts to limit the ranged craziness. You can still field a powerful ranged army, but you're not as cheezy since the archers are adept.

 

Perhaps the answer is to enforce an "only one ranged adept troop per 1000 points" rule. That would achieve the same affect in a freelance army as it would in a faction pure army. At max one big troop of nasty archers.

 

Perhaps army construction can help limit the crushing power of an all ranged army. I'm new to this so help me out here. But most armies have a cavalry unit or something like that. Somebody who's fast and can move up the table quickly. I'm thinking of the Griffon for Dwarves, the cavalry for Nef, Overlords, Crusaders (are there others?) Even the low model count Reptus have Uru, who's not super fast but he moves around and has a high enough DV that he'd be a pain for archers to pull down. Use your fast intercept type models to get to the archers fast and start mixing it up. Even if the archers whip out their daggers and make mincemeat of your interceptor, that's one less troop of archers chipping away at the bulk of your force on your way in. I dunno, I just think that building a balanced army is always a good idea. A solid melee core, some range, some speedy interceptor types, then a mage or a melee monster at your pleasure. But having some of those basic elements helps even the odds against specialized armies, because, in my experience in Warlord and other mini games, specialized armies are typically build to crush other specialized armies. Build a well rounded force and you'll have elements that the specialized army can't handle so well. Then it's up to you to play smart enough to leverage those advantages.

 

Yeesh long post :wacko:

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To an extent, terrain determines the effectiveness of particular units. Warlord would not be the first if it offered a set of rules on tournament/competitive terrain placement, although doing so for one faction only would be odd.

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If you can't engage in melee combat on a 4x4 table in an hour you're taking way to long to make decisions, move models, etc, or there is a ridiculous amount of movement hampering terrain in the way, which would also inhibit ranged combat.

 

1000 vs 1000 on a 4x4, 1 hour is MORE than sufficient. Hell, I've totally eliminated armies in 40 minutes. With 1 hour time limits, it's rare that it's not down to a few models when I've played unless there are serious terrain issues slowing things down (like 8 inch radius heavy woods in the center of the board).

 

Beating Ranged Heavy armies is not hard. Just get there and accept the lossess, Ranged models with the exception of Bull Orc Archers are fairly useless in melee combat. Elven archers are all big and fearsome in an Elf Pure Army. w/o Sure Shot, Shadowy, and Feathered Sky, feh, they're okay. They die really easy.

 

Why bother hacking Freelance just because you didn't happen to bring Cavalry, or Flyers or lots of models, or high DV models. Ranged Combat is not all that fearsome. It's a Static RAV. Melee Combat is much more deadly with the dozens of Support Bonuses Available. Other than Bless, or Equipment Upgrades, Archers' RAV does not change. And most of them cost twice as much.

 

Fighting all ranged is not hard.

 

Just don't spend your entire hour hiding behind hills and not moving your full amount because you're afraid of losing a model or two.

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Limiting ranged adepts limits Reaper, and it shouldn't. It also limits the flavor available for the game, which it shouldn't. Major changes after rules are released drives players away from games, and Warlord doesn't need that.

 

Terrain limits can be as simple as a recommendation for the number or size of terrain pieces for events. Too many people play games in nearly open fields, which will always favor ranged units. Look at the sample battlefield in the Warlord book on page 54. There's a lot of terrain density with a few areas having open fields of fire to give good balance for ranged and close combat. Felt tree markers could do the same cheaply as forests.

 

Another possible solution would be to increase the depth of deployment zones for tournaments. A ranged army can still set up further back, but a close combat army will still have less distance to traverse. That would cause problems for some scenarios, but become a basis for other scenario options. Use the idea if it fits.

 

Limiting the armies more is only a band aid that will cause more problems as the game continues to grow. Ranged combat should be potent, because it always has been. Too many games make it weak, and players get used to that. Games that acknowledge the power of ranged combat surprise people that have gotten used to nerfed arrows.

 

Objectives and terrain are how armies have defeated powerful ranged ability historically, and can work quite well on the tabletop as scenarios and terrain.

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And how, exactly, do you propose to enforce a set of rules governing terrain requirements in order to promote game balance?

 

The balance of game mechanics should not require something as ephemeral as the terrain that is placed on a board.

You don't need rules to guide terrain setup for proficient gamers/tournament officials.

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If you want an all ranged force I'd like to introduce you do a nifty game called CAV...

 

Seriously though, I think Qwyk hit it on the head. Just accept that you're going to lose models and haul b***s to the other side.

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And how, exactly, do you propose to enforce a set of rules governing terrain requirements in order to promote game balance?

 

The balance of game mechanics should not require something as ephemeral as the terrain that is placed on a board.

 

 

I disagree with this statement.

 

Terrain is key to winning a battle. The problem is there are not rules for terrain placement and amount. Many games do take this into account. There is an old thread about this issue but it has not been addressed so far. I like the rules for clan war's terrain set up. It allows easch army a hand at setting up terrain as well as size and type. This makes the battle more strategic and not just who charges and mobs who first. The battle begins by setting up where the fight is taking place

 

A good leader will not just fight anywhere. They would try to force the fight in the terrain which makes their groups have better odds then their opponent.

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I'm wondering about the problem of getting into melee with a shooty army. Let's use 5 as an average movement number.

 

Infantry usually isn't a good answer to shooters. Even the most expensive shooting adepts need to cause only a couple of casualties to break even, and that's not too difficult for marksmen. Cheap infantry is great in mass melee, but it's just about the ideal target for shooters.

 

The best answer to shooters are units that are fast and tough. Griffons, for example, are awesome against shooters. Even if all you do is draw fire, it gives the rest of your army time to close.

 

Cavalry works nicely against shooters, and so do lupine ragers. Two wounds, good movement, and a high DV will run over archers. I think that once more cavalry and mercenary options become available, most of the playbalance problems regarding too much shooting will fix themselves.

 

Healers also stymie shooters pretty well, but most lists can't afford a lot of that.

 

-St.V.

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The best answer to shooters are units that are fast and tough. Griffons, for example, are awesome against shooters. Even if all you do is draw fire, it gives the rest of your army time to close.

 

Cavalry works nicely against shooters, and so do lupine ragers. Two wounds, good movement, and a high DV will run over archers. I think that once more cavalry and mercenary options become available, most of the playbalance problems regarding too much shooting will fix themselves.

Not to bust on you or anything, but I have to disagree with this - in the case of an all ranged freelance in a 1500 point 90 minute tourney.

I played against all of this and more, and didn't break a sweat.

My first game in the recent tourney, a griffin came at me. Got pretty close on it's first activation. My responses? 13 elven arrows & 12 reptus arrows. :devil:

Same thing with cavalry. They get REALLY close on 1 activation. Within inches...

Then they get 25+ arrows to the face, then mobbed by tomb guards and killed.

Remember that with cavalry, sure they may have 2 tracks, but have you looked at their MOV on the second track? After I hit em once, they aren't charging across the field at me anymore. :devil:

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Infantry usually isn't a good answer to shooters.

 

 

My point was more that it can be done with infantry, and the key was to keep on chugging across the field and not to dilly dally behind blocking terrain since in a timed game that hesitation to engage only works in the favor of a shooty army.

 

Also re: Gus's post about cavalry and other high speed interceptors. I think the key to using them correctly is to engage them at the best possible time. Your first activation is a terribly bad time to send a griffon into the skies and get him in close range to the archers. Let the archers activate first (this'll probably mean moving your infy up the field, and you'll probably suffer some casualties to enemy fire - so be it. Then charge that griffon, or cavarly, whatever, into the line of archers that's already activated. Against a shooty army I don't even think I'd make use of flight - at least not right away - since it grants LOS to all archers in range. I'd keep him on the ground and tucked behind some terrain until it was time to activate him, then I'd charge across the ground into combat.

 

You gain 2 things. This turn your interceptor can't be swarmed (by that archery troop... he may have some melee grunts from a different troop hanging out, so you may have that to deal with), and you gain the chance of getting to activate the griffon prior to the enemy's activation of that particular troop. That way you get the combat that you charge with, then next turn hopefully you get another combat, then they swarm with what's left of their archers and you get defensive strikes. In the case of the griffon that might as well be 6 guaranteed corpses and a low chance of getting hit since the griffon has the stats to take on low MAV/DV models in melee. So you've decimated one of their shooty troops, meanwhile your infantry is charging headlong towards the rest of the enemy army. Now you've got a pretty good advantage.

 

Of course things don't always go as planned.... let's say they do get to pincushion your griffon. That's so many less arrows flying at your infantry, and so much the better. Don't get flustered by losing your birdy-cat, and keep those grunts moving up the field.

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