Axe and Hammer Tavern (1.2)

[GreyHorde]

Hail and well met, fellow Longbeards. I have travelled from the great halls of High Fort to seek counsel in this fair tavern, known far and wide for a warm hearth, hot food and cold ale. I am a scout, an adviser of sorts, for a new warband forming in the low hills of Barthos Province. Time is in dire short supply, however; we march on the morrow!

 

Yes, it is a slow day at work….

 

Hello, everyone. I am not new to these forums, and I’ve read this entire topic through, but I am only vaguely familiar with Warlord rules in actual play. After a demo or two in the past year, I am just now starting to build out my Dwarves and finally got a couple of ‘real’ games in last weekend. One 500-point quick pickup game was against the Necropolis – I got clobbered, but I had a good time learning the ropes. The 2nd game was 1500 points against Overlords in a ‘grab the magic items & run’ scenario, which ended in a draw due to time. My dice loved me, for the most part, but I made some tactical blunders…errr…rookie mistakes that offset a lot of it. Still, both games were against much more experienced players, and I had a great time, so no complaints, here.

 

Anyway, this is just an intro. I do have some questions about effective builds, countering a couple of tactics that confuse me, and I need clarification on a few rules/Dwarven things. Unfortunately, they will have to wait until later tonight. Hopefully I'll leave enough time for you guys to help me out before I play again tomorrow night, most likely against Necros.

[GreyHorde]

Okay, so in a nutshell, I did some digging and may have found the answer...I think...to one question about valid b2b contact, corners, etc. The other questions for the moment are:

 

1) Countering flyers -- how do I protect Margara and other important models from a fast flyer, like Syphrilla? I'm sure there are plenty of other nasty surprises a Necro player can throw at me, but so chime in if there is something major here to be aware of.

 

2) Does the 25% Merc rule prevent having multiple Thorvalds? As I understand it, Bane would still function for the Dwarves (but not transfer to the mercs), so I was wondering if it affected Thorvald as well.

 

3) Halberdiers -- are they worth the points, generally, in small amounts to support other front-line troops like Warriors or Shieldmaidens? I ask because I am not quite sure I understand Reach. Trencher makes sense to me with a Reach model behind it, but I can't quite wrap my head around Reach on its own. I dunno. It's late, so I may be babbling...again.

 

Thanks!

[jdripley]

*rubs hands togther* I love these topics and questions!

 

Ok, let me give you my opinions/thoughts/advice.

 

1) These days I never field a squishy caster without protecting it - I've lost waaaay too many mages to do it any other way. Here's what I do. I use the mage, and 4 grunts. I place the 4 grunts in such a way that it is impossible for the enemy to get into b2b with my mage (stick one on each side, be careful not to leave gaps!). This will protect the mage from at least one melee charge, at least one flight of arrows (though not a Volley attack), plenty of magic (all of it if you pack a dispel - which is a good idea), and fliers for at least one turn. Why do I say it works against "at least one?" Because the soliders who are guarding the mage can/will/might die, leaving your mage open. BUT it's a fairly good trick which I use to good effect. I keep the formation going, then when it's time to attack I single move one of the grunts out of Margara's way, single move her out of formation, make her attack, then move all the grunts back into position using the movement actions left. This will guard against Syphrilla since fliers can't move enemies out of the way when they land. It will NOT work against The Called, which can move enemies out of the way when they surface from being burrowed.

 

2) The 25% Merc rule does not prevent you from using multiple Thorvalds. The ability to make Bear Riders non-unique is a faction SA just like Bane or Mt. God's Breath, and would still be available for the Dwarven 75% of your army.

 

3) Yes, and Yes Very. Reach works this way - when it's your turn to attack, a reach model in the rear of an attacking model grants the attacking model +1 MAV. It's essentially just like support, but the Reacher is immune to defensive strikes (since he's behind a warrior or something like that). Now, mix in trencher. Offensively it works just the same. But Trencher allows the model to make use of Reach on Defensive Strikes as well!! It is the only way for a model to make use of support on a defensive strike in the whole game, and it rocks. Here's some examples to get you salivating. And purchasing Trenchers and Halberdiers.

 

Freya w/2 Halberdiers: Attacks and defends twice at MAV 6!! King Thorgram: Attacks and defends three times at MAV 7!! It gets even better if you add in a Totem of Battle, since the totem bonus stacks with the reach bonus, and things can get seriously out of hand at that point :) It's like the perfect build for players (like me) who can't seem to get their dice to roll higher than a 5 EVER (unless I need a 10, in which case my dice will gladly roll all sorts of 8's and 9's).

 

If you go the halberdier route, there's kindof two schools of thought among players here. One is to evenly spread the halberdiers out among your trencher units in a 1:1 ratio. Example troop: Gargram and 4 warriors with 5 halberds - each trencher has his own halberd to help him out. The other school of thought is to use a 2:1 ratio of trenchers to reachers. Example troop: Gargram and 5 warriors and 3 halberds. 6 trenchers and 3 reachers. The idea here is to save points by fielding less trenchers, figuring that you stick 2 warriors on a target with the reacher behind both, and get double bang for your buck. This is definately the economical way, and may very well be the best way. You get more models with DV 10 if you do it this way. I have 2 Trencher troops: Freya with 6 Maidens and 3 Halberds, and Gargram with 6 warriors and 3 halberds. The numbers aren't quite on either of those ratios, but that's because I have limited model selection. I'd prefer to go to the 2:1 ratio, but what can you do?

 

Hope that helps!

[GreyHorde]

Sweeeet. Thanks for the help, JD. I'll try these out -- I'm headed out right now to play, and I have enough proxies to try a couple of these options. I'll post the results later.

 

[Edit]

Thanks again for your help. I used 2 of the options -- Halberdiers, and protecting troop leaders from Syphrilla -- in a friendly game Saturday night . That reduced Syphrilla from leader-killer to short-term Piercer disruption. Unfortunately for me, that was enough for my opponent, being all he intended for her to begin with. He's a good player, and I have a lot to learn.

 

It looks like the general 'build' with 2:1 Warriors/Shieldmaidens to Halberdiers would have worked pretty well in the hands of someone more competent than me. It also would have been very nice if I had used d10's, rather than off-balance lumps of coal with the numbers 1 through 5, and a 0, on them. It seemed for most of the night my dice were incapable of rolling above a 4 except in the least critical circumstances.

 

Honestly, I made a few mistakes in the pre-game with leader selection, spells and equipment. In the game, I played too defensively and allowed my opponent to control the field and take advantage of terrain, buildings and formations. The dice didn't help, but I realize now that I held Freya and Herryk back too long, defending them too much and getting them jammed behind tight formations. The Halberdiers kept supporting Warriors and Shieldmaidens on the front lines instead of getting the leaders really involved. I also used Piercers (7, w/Gargram and a troop Musician) for the first time, and I think in the process of learning to use them I blew at least one volley opportunity and one shot at Syphrilla. Ah well, the way the dice were rolling, a few shots at RAV 2 or 3 probably would have made no difference either way.

 

Still, I came away believing the Halberdiers were worth the points, especially if I had used them properly. I'll learn. Until then, as long as I'm playing and learning, I don't mind losing...much. I'm a bit competitive by nature, so I'll keep asking questions, learning and trying.

[jdripley]

Don't let bad dice get you down. Well... you can if you want. Kinda stinks when even your opponents agree that your strategy was superior, but since you couldn't hit the broad side of a barn you got slaughtered anyways.

 

I wouldn't worry about Syphrilla attacking Freya or Herryk. Unless your opponent gives her lots of sweet gear - for 60 points extra she can have MAV 5 and DV 12, which is pretty impressive. However, if you're fairly certain that she's not carrying that sort of gear, she's no match for Freya and not nearly a match for Herryk. Both would wreck Syphrilla, dice not withstanding. It's models like Margara, Kara and Snorri that you've really got to worry about when fast movers are around.

 

Mmm, you mentioned Herryk :) I'm gonna have to use him in my next game :)

[GreyHorde]

Wow, my 'battle report' did seem rather depressing, didn't it? Sorry. Chalk it up to a traditional, dour dwarven outlook, plus sleep deprivation and an impatient desire to be a better player. It's a skirmish game, and I'm still learning to skirmish and think outside of rigid, supportive, layered formations.

 

So, back on topic with a more positive attitude...Herryk is very cool, IMHO. I've included him a couple of times, now, and he's acquitted himself well on the field. He's not a melee monster on his own, but he's a bargain at the base 201 points. Kit him out a bit, and/or add some good spells and he's a good balance. You probably knew that already.

 

New question: how do I use solos effectively, like the Griffon and Thorvald? (Snorri is probably a subject all his own.) I've used the flyer once and the bear a couple of times. The bear got swarmed so fast he didn't come close to accounting for his points. I realize it depends on terrain, opponent, objective, etc., but I mean are there upgrades that are particularly useful, or some to steer clear of? Is there a way to keep a few cheap grunts close by, helping to keep the solo from getting swarmed? Can two or three bears stay close together and break up swarm/mob attacks? Would friendly models with Trencher have to make DIS checks if the bear comes in rear-side contact to support with Reach? Is it best to soften up the opponent's groups with range attacks or magic and then charge the solos in to mop up? I know I am asking a lot, but I do very much appreciate any and all general advice & suggestions.

 

Dave, inquisitively.

[ladystorm]

after some review of this thread, I'm wondering if there was a Swiftaxes versus Bezerkers discussion I missed?

 

or are the point costs keeping anyone from trying them?

[wildbill]

So, back on topic with a more positive attitude...Herryk is very cool, IMHO. I've included him a couple of times, now, and he's acquitted himself well on the field. He's not a melee monster on his own, but he's a bargain at the base 201 points. Kit him out a bit, and/or add some good spells and he's a good balance. You probably knew that already.

 

New question: how do I use solos effectively, like the Griffon and Thorvald? (Snorri is probably a subject all his own.) I've used the flyer once and the bear a couple of times. The bear got swarmed so fast he didn't come close to accounting for his points. I realize it depends on terrain, opponent, objective, etc., but I mean are there upgrades that are particularly useful, or some to steer clear of? Is there a way to keep a few cheap grunts close by, helping to keep the solo from getting swarmed? Can two or three bears stay close together and break up swarm/mob attacks? Would friendly models with Trencher have to make DIS checks if the bear comes in rear-side contact to support with Reach? Is it best to soften up the opponent's groups with range attacks or magic and then charge the solos in to mop up? I know I am asking a lot, but I do very much appreciate any and all general advice & suggestions.

 

Dave, inquisitively.

 

I disagree that you think Herryk is not a melee monster. Yes, he only has two attacks. But he has an MAV 5!! That's nothing to sneeze at. Plus, he has Monster Slayer, as my Reptus player had the misfortune to discover. I had MAV 7 whooping up on Uru. That was sweet.

 

The Griffon is a goofy solo, in my opinion. While he is big and tough, he doesn't have Horrid, which really hurts. So, I use him one of two ways: 1) If my opponent has a mage or cleric, I bust my feathered butt getting across the board to try and take him/her out. Deploy at the edge of your zone, Ranger, and then use the Griffon as your first activation. The Griffon will get swarmed, but with Warmaster, he should be able to take out several attackers before dying totally. 2) Use him as an arrow magnet should your opponent not be fielding a mage or cleric. This can be done two ways: a) just fly him around sucking up the arrows, allowing the rest of your army to zoom across the field; or b) fly him as fast as you can into the archers and kill as many as possible. Most players I go against spread their archers out all over the place, so the best I could do is one at a time. While the Griffon is munching on fresh archer meat (read: on the ground), the rest of the archers are free to shoot at your army. Thus, that's why option a) exists.

 

I rarely field a Dwarf army with only one Thorvald. He is too good of a model at 101 points to not field multiples. I'll routinely field 3 of them. Don't ever ever ever ever forget about Horrid! There are a lot of grunts that only have a DIS 5, and that is no gimme roll. I will usually keep a couple of them together, and maybe the third near a unit for support. Never run them out alone unless it is to chase down a pesky cleric or mage etc. Otherwise, you'll experience the swarm technique for removal. And, no, friendly models DO NOT have to make DIS checks if Thorvald comes into base-to-base contact.

 

I usually field around 5-6 Piercers as well. Sometimes I'll rank them up and do the Volley thing, but I'm starting to spread them out more and attack multiple targets at once. It seems to work out well that way.

 

You are correct that Snorri is an animal that is entirely different. He costs the same as a Thorvald, and is much more difficult to play with. I have used him in two games only. In the first game, I got to shoot one time before being charged and thus killed. (I didn't get good activations that game) The second game I paired him up with a Thorvald, a couple of Piercers, and a couple of Warriors, and he did really well. He was able to wound several Justicars (I was against the Crusaders ) and that allowed either my Piercers to finish them off or my melee troops to do so. I need to play with him a couple more times, I guess.

 

I have never gotten Kara Foehunter to do a darn thing for me (EVER!), so I refuse to play her now. I'm sure there are plenty of players with stories as to how awesome she is, but not for me! Oh well.

 

after some review of this thread, I'm wondering if there was a Swiftaxes versus Bezerkers discussion I missed?

 

or are the point costs keeping anyone from trying them?

 

 

Personally, I rarely field Swiftaxes any more. Occasionally I'll drop 2-4 on the field, but not very often. Why would I, when the rest of the Dwarven troops are so awesome? With their DV 8, they die way too easily to bow fire. If I have to use Warriors or Maidens as a screen for the Swiftaxes, then who cares!! The whole point of them is the fact that they can book it across the field. I'd rather take Halberdiers if I have to screen them.

 

As far as the Berserkers go, I have not yet had an opportunity to field them. However, with that said, I don't think I'll own more than like 3. They are way too expensive for a two track grunt, and I seriously doubt I will get much of a return out of them. DV 9? Blah.

 

Wild Bill

[jdripley]

Haven't used a Berserker yet. It's on the "to buy" list, but I've been building up my Nefsokar army...

 

I agree with WB, they are madly expensive for a soldier. Two track Crimson Knights would kick the paste out of Berserkers, for half the cost. First strike is pretty nifty, and could perhaps lend some survivability to them, but I don't know. This isn't playtest info so I know it's not terribly useful, but for what it's worth, it makes me scared to use him, and I don't see a whole lot of positives.. unlike Logan, who's also scary to use, but his MAV 6 and many tracks makes me more comfortable that I'll actually get some use out of him before he's killed.

[aircrew0]

Haven't used a Berserker yet. It's on the "to buy" list, but I've been building up my Nefsokar army...

 

I agree with WB, they are madly expensive for a soldier. Two track Crimson Knights would kick the paste out of Berserkers, for half the cost. First strike is pretty nifty, and could perhaps lend some survivability to them, but I don't know. This isn't playtest info so I know it's not terribly useful, but for what it's worth, it makes me scared to use him, and I don't see a whole lot of positives.. unlike Logan, who's also scary to use, but his MAV 6 and many tracks makes me more comfortable that I'll actually get some use out of him before he's killed.

 

WHAT THE BLANK you guys sound as bad as our dwarf they are a troop with a 3 mav with 2 ma with 2 tracks they all have 360 and oh yeah it is a troop with a 3 mav and 2 ma that has first strike do you not realize how powerful that is and what does it matter if they have a 9 dv when the troops they charge and attack and kill don't get to attack back oh yeah and with a simple little troop musician there move is a 7, but hey don't get me wrong i know they are not as under priced as the shildmaidens are, but yeah just know if i had a troop like the berserkers in my darkspawn army it would be so ridiculously insane

[jdripley]

The trick is to actually kill their target... MAV 3 isn't an easy hit on a dv10, which is a "regular" dv. Yes you have support... but considering they're adept, to get the most out of them you have multiples in a troop. That's 60 something times 3? 6? 9? That's a huge number of points in models that don't have too much in the way of DV. I could take 3 Swiftaxes for every Berserker, and make the opponent roll 3 seperate times to take them all down. I don't think our point is that he isn't a decent fighter, just that for the point cost we're nervous about his low DV.

[aircrew0]

The trick is to actually kill their target... MAV 3 isn't an easy hit on a dv10, which is a "regular" dv. Yes you have support... but considering they're adept, to get the most out of them you have multiples in a troop. That's 60 something times 3? 6? 9? That's a huge number of points in models that don't have too much in the way of DV. I could take 3 Swiftaxes for every Berserker, and make the opponent roll 3 seperate times to take them all down. I don't think our point is that he isn't a decent fighter, just that for the point cost we're nervous about his low DV.

 

yeah a 3 mav might not be great but don't forget each one has 2 ma which is real nice so that would be 6 ma with 3 models all with first strike plus they are 2 track models the dwarfs have atleast one innate healer and several clerics to keep them up. i have seen them used to very good effect oh yeah against me and i have seen several areas where they would be very effective

[Emmel Eitch]

Lets keep it friendly guys.

 

Mods have the Last Say SA and I'd just assume we not have to use it.

[aircrew0]

Lets keep it friendly guys.

 

Mods have the Last Say SA and I'd just assume we not have to use it.

 

sorry guys i wasn't trying to incite anything just trying to point out how strong and effective the troop is and can be

[wildbill]

Lets keep it friendly guys.

 

Mods have the Last Say SA and I'd just assume we not have to use it.

 

sorry guys i wasn't trying to incite anything just trying to point out how strong and effective the troop is and can be

 

I wasn't being offended. I thought aircrew0 was making some valid points. Did I miss something EE?

 

You are correct, aircrew0: they do have 2 attacks each at a 3. If you can manage to pull off the charge (with musician it's 11 inches ), then you do have a chance of killing off something with First Strike. The trick, then, is to not charge anything you want to face a Defensive Strike from. Example: Mossbeard. Your entire troop of Berserkers better charge in there (with Insane!, no problem! ) and not miss. Mossy has DV 14. You would need 5 Berserkers just to get a MAV 7 (including Support bonuses). Wow. But, you would have 10 attacks, so chances are high you would do at least 3 wounds. The bad thing is Mossy has 5 wounds. That means you'll probably lose one Berserker, and maybe have a wound on a second. Then, Mossy activates and kills the wounded Berserker, and potentially wounds a third. Granted, the 2 and half Berserkers remaining should be able to take out Mossy at that point, I see a third Berserker dying with a fourth potentially wounded. 5 Berserkers x 66 pts. ea. = 330 pts. Mossy = 261 pts (with no spells). Assuming everything goes as I said, Mossy killed 3 Berserkers for a total of 198 points, and wounded a fourth (call it 33 points). That's a total of 231 points. Hmmmm...

 

Wild Bill