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Okay, this may sound really bad considering the subject but I'm going to ask anyway. Of all the factions that have been expanded past the rulebook, ie. Necropolis, Crusaders, Nefsofar, Reven and Overlords, the Reven and Necropolis have only one alternate Warlord while all the others were given two. Like I said, the other factions may ask what I'm complaining about considering they only have one warlord choice, while I at least have two but I was just wondering if there were any current plans to give the Reven or Necropolis an additional Warlord.

 

William

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Okay, this may sound really bad considering the subject but I'm going to ask anyway. Of all the factions that have been expanded past the rulebook, ie. Necropolis, Crusaders, Nefsofar, Reven and Overlords, the Reven and Necropolis have only one alternate Warlord while all the others were given two. Like I said, the other factions may ask what I'm complaining about considering they only have one warlord choice, while I at least have two but I was just wondering if there were any current plans to give the Reven or Necropolis an additional Warlord.

I don't see it. Reven has two good warlords and a third sub-faction that never requires a warlord. Necropolis also has two good warlords. Gerard, Jehanne, Thorgram, Logan and Danithal are crap due to DV's that are too low for close combat, and Thorgram is too expensive anyways. Kristianna is also too expensive as a warlord unless you can figure out how to use Holy Burst effectively and exclusively; she would have been much more usable in my opinion without the Innate Spell and costing 100+ points less.

 

What would a third Necropolis warlord be? There are already melee and mage warlords. Necropolis doesn't do clerics. Maybe a crappy fighter-mage along the lines of Danithal (although giving it Horrid might make it viable against anyone except Horde Mentality)???

 

Rich

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I don't see it. Reven has two good warlords and a third sub-faction that never requires a warlord. Necropolis also has two good warlords. Gerard, Jehanne, Thorgram, Logan and Danithal are crap due to DV's that are too low for close combat, and Thorgram is too expensive anyways. Kristianna is also too expensive as a warlord unless you can figure out how to use Holy Burst effectively and exclusively; she would have been much more usable in my opinion without the Innate Spell and costing 100+ points less.

 

What would a third Necropolis warlord be? There are already melee and mage warlords. Necropolis doesn't do clerics. Maybe a crappy fighter-mage along the lines of Danithal (although giving it Horrid might make it viable against anyone except Horde Mentality)???

 

I do agree that both the Necropolis and Reven have 2 very usable Warlords, while the ones that have 3 have a very niche Cavalry and Caster warlord each.

 

What I don't agree with, and what makes it clear that you have pretty limited experience facing a wide variety of opponents, and skill levels, despite clearly having a good grasp of the rules and tactics, is that you sweepingly dismiss many other quality Warlords, even if they have slight weaknesses in certain areas.

 

I've only seen Gerard on the board once, but his DV 10 didn't rightly matter when he was backed up with quality healing units that are readily available to the Crusaders. If you don't care for DV 10 it is an easy fix to spend 15-30 points on armor, which in a 1501+ point game (I wouldn't consider taking a Warlord in any other condition) isn't all that worrisome. He isn't on par with Khong-To, but in that regards you are lucky to have the best melee Warlord in the game at the front of your faction. That being said the Duke would come close in an Army of Justice force against an Evil opponent (still that isn't that common an occassion). It is easy to snub Gerards clerical abilities, but they have th potential to be very handy.

 

Danithal is in much the same mold as Gerard, I don't think he is all that weak, although I'd hesitate to give him any spells outside of a Dispel at present. DV 10 isn't the end of the world in my opinion, and while I don't think Danithal is stellar I would take him without any complaints.

 

I'll agree Jehanee has issue and problems, but I'll shake my head at any knocks against Kristianna, I'm sorry, but this lady paired with Halbarad and a unit of Justicars would be near impossible to take down in my opinion. I've never tried it out, but I do know the nastiness of using Vampires who are very easily healed back up, Holy Burst + Bandages from Halbarad creates the same effect for Justicars. Two-wound Soldier models are a heck of a pain in this game.

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What I don't agree with, and what makes it clear that you have pretty limited experience facing a wide variety of opponents, and skill levels, despite clearly having a good grasp of the rules and tactics, is that you sweepingly dismiss many other quality Warlords, even if they have slight weaknesses in certain areas.

I dismiss warlords that have weaknesses in the areas that they are supposed to be good at. A melee-oriented warlord needs a high DV more than they need a high MAV. 3 attacks at a MAV 5 is good enough to max out the damage in most cases. The problem is that a swarm of grunts will clobber a melee warlord that has a DV that is too low. A DV 10 has a maximum upgraded DV of 12. A swarm of grunts will demolish such a low DV. DV 11 (upgraded from 9) is ridiculous; there are grunts with that DV! A melee warlord that has mediocre cleric/mage abilities is wasting the points spent on the melee ability every turn that a combat action is used up using low-powered spells (that cost yet more points - let a higher CP spellcaster have those points and spells!)

 

If you have found a way for Kristianna to meet my criteria (use Holy Burst both effectively and exclusively), then she might be considered a first-rate warlord. However, Khufu is a much better melee-cleric than Gerard and costs less, so since I consider Khufu second-rate behind Varaug and KhongTo, that would make Gerard third-rate! Also, the admission that a warlord wouldn't be taken unless required indicates that all warlords are crap compared to the alternatives. This means that the most powerful warlords are the cheapest ones since they allow the saved points to be spent elsewhere.

 

Rich

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I know I am mad at having to pay 414 points for a Warlord with DV 10. Esqueeze me? Baking powder? DV 10? That's right! DV 10!! No thanks!! Thogrim can't decide if he's a melee monster or a ranged (pseudo-ok) monster. I asked for them to make a warlord dedicated to melee and one dedicated to ranged. I guess I should have been more specific when I asked for a melee warlord. ::):

 

If Logan can get in the charge...if Logan's support troops don't die...if Logan doesn't whiff like a big dog...then he's cool. But, that's a lot of if's you have to hope goes your way...and DV 9 doesn't cut it. I have to spend 40 points for a DF and GMA just to make him playable. Now he's 346 points. Yee ha!

 

Wild Bill :blues:

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DV is not all there is to a model. There are several ways to stop a model from being hit. Use large models as cover, run diversions across the board,

 

This game does not make expensive models invincible. They need support. Use the models in their troops to stop him from being ganged up on. Cover that warlords rear with a reach model or two; keep a warrior at his side. Proper support turns an overpointed fig, into an out of control killing machine.

 

Models also cannot be weighted soly on what they kill each game. If a game lasts 5 rounds, and your 300pt warlord held up a troop of 500pts for 2 rounds, but only killed 100pts. That's a job well done. Because elsewhere on the board you outnumbered you opponent.

 

Models with low DV should also be used differently. They should strive to lead the attack, and to avoid defensive strikes. Which means make sure the model you attack will die, aim for heros without Warmaster, don't spread out all of your attacks.

 

Diversity in stats is what is going to keep this game fun. If you make things the same, it loses alot of spice. Trust me. Be happy you have a melee glass cannon. It's freaking cool. And eventually we'll see how well he fits in with those dwarven berserkers that are probably on the horizon.

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Pick the Warlord and Army you want to use. Just because they fit into your play style and it works for you, doesn't mean someone else can't find effective uses for that model.

 

It would be great if every Warlord had #MA 3, MAV 5, DV 14 but then we'd have to call the game Carbon Copy or something. Models are different. They need to be played differently. Just because someone has not figured out an effective use for the model does not make it useless. Just useless for you.

 

Just becase a model is a "Melee Warlord" does not mean you can just charge them into any old battle and nothing will hurt them, sometimes it takes more precision, just like a "Mage Warlord" isn't going to waste a Firestorm on two 21 point grunts just because they have a high CP.

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Hey, Thorgrim with all the movement and accuracy and armor upgrades you can stick on him, plus a couple shieldmaidens, makes a darn good 1500 point force!

 

Don't you mean model?

 

Thorgrim I think, was Reaper's way of trying to attract Mage Knight players to Warlord... ;)

 

"Hey, you can win tournies with just 3 models, like MK!"

 

Thorgrim, the 2nd Edition Marneus Calgar of Warlord!

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Hey, Thorgrim with all the movement and accuracy and armor upgrades you can stick on him, plus a couple shieldmaidens, makes a darn good 1500 point force!

 

Don't you mean model?

 

Thorgrim I think, was Reaper's way of trying to attract Mage Knight players to Warlord... ;)

 

"Hey, you can win tournies with just 3 models, like MK!"

 

Thorgrim, the 2nd Edition Marneus Calgar of Warlord!

If only he was actually useful (or cheaper)

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If you have found a way for Kristianna to meet my criteria (use Holy Burst both effectively and exclusively), then she might be considered a first-rate warlord. However, Khufu is a much better melee-cleric than Gerard and costs less, so since I consider Khufu second-rate behind Varaug and KhongTo, that would make Gerard third-rate! Also, the admission that a warlord wouldn't be taken unless required indicates that all warlords are crap compared to the alternatives. This means that the most powerful warlords are the cheapest ones since they allow the saved points to be spent elsewhere.

 

Yet if Khufu and Gerard stood toe to toe they would both be hitting eachother on 5's. The Beefiness of Gerards points comes from his MAV 6 (Mav 7 vs. Evil in a Army of Justice). I agree that grunts can take down Gerard, but if you play the situation correctly, and play the army to it's strengths you'll have more means to heal your Warlord up using a Crusader force than any other faction in the game. Gerards is not a Tank that can be sent in all alone, I agree, but properly supported (meaning using him in formation with other models) you can protect him enough that mobs arn't as much of a threat to him as you might think. This becomes especially true when you are dealing with 'Evil' models who must pass discipline checks to base Gerard.

 

I wouldn't cast aside his abilites to throw a spell or two around either. He does have a 70% chance of casting Bandage, and I don't consider it a waste to put such a spell on him. In a tournament setting with a time limit, no way, but in a long drawn out Kill'em all it would prove useful.

 

As far as DV is concerned, my biggest problem with his low DV is against ranged opponents, and at least he has Deflect which puts him in line with most other melee characters at DV 11.

 

What I like about Gerard the most, is his high MD in comparison to Khong-To (hey, I gotta grasp at something), in magic heavy games where I invest in a Mage I can take out Khong-To with relative ease using CP 6+ Casters, and if I field Ashkypt, Moandain, or the Witch Queen he will be hurt before he gets into combat. Moandain + Convulsive Fear is a sure bet.

 

Just some thoughts, keep in mind I'm not disagreeing that Khong-To and Varaug are pound for pound the best in the game, but I'll still argue that doesn't make many of the other Warlord worthwhile.

 

As for my 1501+ comment, it isn't so much that I think Warlords are crap, it's more that I believe they arn't cost effective in smaller armies. In smaller games high cost models (any of them, leader, Elite, Solo) really arn't effective in my opinion in most instances as they tend to have a more negative effect than a positive one, they suck up so many points that they dig you into a hole you have to fight your way out of. Larger games see this become more balanced, and in 1501+ games you both have to take a Warlord, so your opponent has the same deficit as you do (the larger the game, the more practical taking a Warlord is).

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As for my 1501+ comment, it isn't so much that I think Warlords are crap, it's more that I believe they arn't cost effective in smaller armies. In smaller games high cost models (any of them, leader, Elite, Solo) really arn't effective in my opinion in most instances as they tend to have a more negative effect than a positive one, they suck up so many points that they dig you into a hole you have to fight your way out of. Larger games see this become more balanced, and in 1501+ games you both have to take a Warlord, so your opponent has the same deficit as you do (the larger the game, the more practical taking a Warlord is).

 

In generel no, but some armies however still get a raw deal compared to rest. If only Thorgram's bird was optional equipment, Reaper could stop a lot of mutterings into innocent ale tankards.

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